How good Hagler really was?

Cotto won titles in four divisions. How many other people have done that?

 

Sure, I guess it all depends on your definition of great. He's obviously not an ATG like Duran, but if you include guys like Tzsyu or Calzaghe as great, Miggy is definitively great.

 

Quite a few including Broner and Guerrero.

 

Forget cotto anyway. In time people will call him a great, right now he's suffering from contemporary fighter itis. Lol

Pacquiao Marquez and de la Hoya are undoubtedly great fighters. And all were still handy at the time Floyd fought them.

 

I'm talking four of the original three belts not all this shit piss you get now

 

But that's what he is. He's not 'good' per se, he's a good champion. Not dominant or anything, but a good fighter with good skills, guts for sure, a reasonable chin and poor stamina. I mean, how many actually 'great' fighters would you pick him to beat? I mean, he actually fought two of them. One of them gave him a hellacious beating and the other won pretty comfortably in the twilight of his career.

MTF :dunno:

 

Handy, perhaps. Prime? Not a fucking chance. Mayweather wanted fuck all to do with a younger version of Manny.

MTF

 

I've seen a few brits call Benn and Eubank great fighter (might even be you), and Mig was miles above these 2.

And you underrate Cotto big time. The guy destroyed solid fighters like quintana, Bailey, Geale and Judah, and beat a still useful Mosley and Mayorga

 

JMM is a strange one to rank. I've always liked him and rated him highly. He's an absolutely lovely combination puncher who likes sitting in the pocket and throwing some great combinations. He's also one of the most durable little bastards you could hope to see - he was put down countless times but always came back firing. He beat some very decent fighters and won loads of titles. He also had the number of an actual all-time great fighter because his style was a perfect counter to Manny's. He also drank his own piss and took a LOT of steroids later in his career.

But I don't know anyone who would seriously consider him an ATG or even higher historically than the guy he knocked spark out after getting jobbed by him at least once (arguably twice). I'd rank him higher than Cotto but how much higher I'm not sure...

MTF :dunno:

 

That's exactly my point. He beat lots of solid and still useful fighters. Geale, by the way, was bang average - calling his 'solid' is a reach. How many very good (prime) or great (prime) fighters did he beat? His best win is against Martinez - a very good, 39 yr old fighter. He lost both his fights against great fighters. I'm a long time, big Cotto fan but I've never considered him a 'great' fighter. He's been a good champion. He's never been a great one IMO.

The rest of your post is irrelevant because you basically spend chunks of time here hating on British posters and British fighters not named Carl Froch, so you cannot be taken seriously on any of those issues.

MTF

 

I do ? that's new to me. In fact I like a fuckload of british fighters. I just dont adulate them like you do, and lose all criticial senses.


Btw, at the time he beat him, Mosley, CLottey and Judah were a lot better than solid and useful

 

Clottey was never any better than solid/useful at world level. He's basically a tough gatekeeper. Always has been. Judah? He's flashy, speedy trash. Always has been. His best wins prior to the Cotto fight were probably Cory Spinks (who beat him first time round) and Junior fucking Witter. Prior to his loss to Cotto (and not including his loss to Spinks) he's been absolutely iced by Tszyu (who you don't rate that highly), beaten by Floyd and also by the formidable Baldomir :: Not long after he lost to the aforementioned Clottey. I don't know many people who think Zab was 'a lot better than solid and useful'. A prime Zab might have arguably been good, but not IMO he wasn't.

Prime Mosely was. The version Cotto fought was 36 years old, three years removed from his title fight defeats to Winky and about to embark on a run of three wins in his next eight fights. He was miles best his prime. About five or so years past, in fact.

I don't adulate any fighters. Why would I adulate people I've never met? ::

MTF

 

I dont know why you adulate pretty much every british fighters , but you clearly do

 

Yeah, Marquez was a fantastic little fighter, on the precipice of being great perhaps, but not quite there.

 

No, I don't. I could name plenty of current, world level British fighters I don't even like, let alone adulate. Khan, Frampton, Fury, Eubanks Jr, Joshua, DeGale - there's half a dozen I'm on record for criticisng here on numerous occasions. I'm probably the least patriotic English poster on this board.

But don't let these facts stop you engaging on your latest chapter in being some kind of 'forum hard-man' - ignoring people who actually take the time and effort to try and engage with you in boxing debate only for you to sidetrack them with your bullshit. At least you haven't resorted to calling me a 'half-parki' this time, which might have been racist if I wasn't as white as an albino, so you're schtick has taken a slight turn for the better I suppose :atu:

I'd resolved recently not to bother replying to any of your posts on the basis that you are a blowhard who seems to enjoy picking online fights with people you've never met. But you replied to a couple of my posts to other people with semi-cogent boxing points so I thought I'd try and engage with it, going through resumes, conceding some fair points, offering opinions. What a pointless exercise on my part; here you are, once again already down to the 'internet tough guy' act and throwing baseless bullshit around...

Rest assured, this will be the last time I bother wasting my time replying to you. You're the worst kind of moron - a thick idiot who is convinced that everyone else is a thick idiot.

MTF

 

He's certainly not an ATG. I can see an argument for him being 'great', depending on how you define that term, but it's borderline for me too.

MTF

 

Cotto is not a great fighter by any stretch

 

Judah, 36-yr old Mosely, Clottey, Geale and Bailey - the resume of a great fighter, apparently.

MTF

 

A good fighter, and one I enjoyed watching for sure, but never a great

 

Cotto is borderline as a "great". He had nice runs and accomplishments but he seems to have just fell short of the mark too many times.

DLH was great. You old men can't talk about "eras" and multiple belts and guys being protected and not give Oscar props for fighting everybody in one of the deepest divisions in recent memory.

JMM is obviously an ATG and one of the best fighters of this generation. I don't what argument could be made otherwise. Obviously he wasn't a notable welter though.

I'll say this. If someone had never heard of Floyd and you tried to impress them by showing his fights with Marquez and Pac they'd laugh in your face at Floyd running away from these little ass dudes. It wouldn't help that he never came close to stopping either of them and the little Asian grocer rocked him 3 or 4 times.

 

You're the one who first make accusation (you hate every brithis fighters bar Carl Froch alm:) so fuck off with taking the moral high ground cause I respond by saying you adulate british fighters. Seems like your fat pallid ass can't take what he dish. And with whom did I ever get into a fight on this forum? THe only time I insult someone is when they first start with the insults.

And after the last debacle where you posted as a proof an article that directly contradicted what you were claiming, you calling me an idiot is laughable to say the least.

 

Again, it depends on how you define great. Saying he is great or not is meaningless if we don't have a common definition of the word.

As a baseline, who would be the worst fighter you would call great ?

 

Tough call...

Let's put it another way... I struggle to think of a really outstanding Welterweight from the 40s onward that I'd pick Cotto to beat... There's other welterweights who I DON'T consider great that I wouldn't even say that about

 

Cotto is the perfect definition of a VERY GOOD fighter, but he's on the LOWER tier of very good. He was NOT great, I don't give a fuck how many belts he won. We're talking about a guy who got a gift decision over Josh Clottey.

Let's just compare him to his fellow Ricans.... he was NOT on the same level as Ortiz, Trinidad, Gomez, and Benitez. I'll take it a step further and say he was SEVERAL levels inferior to those 4.

You also have Ricans who weren't as accomplished as Cotto, but in their primes were better fighters... like DeJesus, Rosario, and Camacho.

 

By 2030 record books will demonstrate that that fight never happened.

 

I consider Cotto to be inferior to say, Simon Brown. And Brown wasn't a great fighter.

 

Agree completely... Were it not for a guy named Duran, DeJesus would've ruled the lightweight division and been an absolute legend among Puerto Rican fighters

 

Exactly... I wouldn't pick Cotto to beat him in a fight and there are non-great fighters I would​ pick to beat Brown in a fight at his best

 

From 1980-2000, I'd pick the following welterweights over Cotto with great confidence:

Leonard
Hearns
Duran
Curry
Benitez
Cuevas
Palomino
Starling
Brown
Honeyghan
Quartey
DLH
Trinidad
Mosley: Prime version. Cotto BARELY edged the faded version.
Forrest

And those are just the GIVEN picks.

There's several other guys who very well might beat Cotto, but I wouldn't be positive. For instance, Breland. I think Breland would beat the Hell outta Cotto, but I'm not sure what happens if he gets cracked with Cotto's hook.

I could see fuckin Cristanto Espana beating Cotto. I could see Colin Jones beating Cotto.

 

I've never heard Cotto be described as a great fighter by anyone sensible before. He just isn't.

MTF