All time great fighters, that could have NEVER beaten another fighter based on styles

That's quite a bit of double think you've managed there sly, your floyd love has made your mind powerful! Pac's style relied on punch output that's why it didn't matter that the fight didn't happen until his punch output had hugely declined! Makes total sense

 

We'll never know the outcome of Floyd vs 09 Pac... Floyd ducked him and intentionally waited for him to slip.

 

Why is anybody bothering to debate Sly on Floyd when he's on record saying Floyd beats Ray Robinson at 147.

 

Floyd was definitely very strategic with his match making. Moreso than Oscar ever was.

 

Bruh,

If Floyd THOUGHT he Could've 10-0'ed ANY Version of Pac, You'd Best Believe Fl0yd WOULDN'T Have Insisted on All the Conditions and Clauses it Eventually Took to Get the Fight Made...

Floyd Would HAVE to Be Favored, but NOfuckingWAY Does he Beat the Hatton/Cotto Version of Pac, 10 Out of 10...







REED

 

Correct.

 

I think in 2010 it would have played out similar, at a faster pace. A better fight and certainly better for boxing than what occurred.

And after all that mess, Floyd was the one who had more controversy afterwards with PED tests than Manny.

Not that I'm saying Manny is certainly clean, my guess is that both of them have taken something, like a ton of athletes all over pro sports.

Them not fighting in 2010 was an embarrassment to the sport.

 

2009 pac probably beats PBF. It's a shame we never find out

 

The version of Holyfield that beat Tyson is the only version that could have done so. By the time they fought Tyson had been in and out of prison and Holyfield had those battles with Bowe, Foreman and Lemmon. He'd grown accustomed to fighting bigger guys and was used to fighting guys physically stronger than him.

Tyson wasn't the same guy either. In fact, the version of Tyson that beat Rudduck twice would have beaten any version of Holyfield.

They met at the perfect time for Evander. It would have been a good scrap but Tyson's skills wouldn't have eroded to the point Holyfield could have fully exploited his flaws. Younger Evander would have been more apt to trade shots than to wisely hold Mike, walk him backward and keep him off balance.

 

Didn't see this before I posted but...agREED.

 

???

The lemmon fights were numerous yeard after the tyson fights

 

You're right. I meant the Bowe fights.

 

I think prime tyson beats any version of holyfield, personally.

 

Felix Trinidad vs. Winky Wright

After watching that fight, I can't picture the result being different if it were 5 years earlier.

Winky always wins, although Tito can't possibly perform worse than when they did fight.

 

That was a big argument in the early 2000s

 

I won't argue with the thinking that Wright always beats Trinidad, it's definitely not a ridiculous position to take, but I'd disagree.

If they fought circa 99-00, Trinidad would have won. Post-Hopkins, post-retirement Trinidad lost just as much in reflexes and sharpness as post-prison Tyson did.

2005 Trinidad could still beat a face first scrub like Mayorga, but he had lost too much sharpness to beat a top technician like Wright.

5 years earlier he was a COMPLETELY different animal.

 

I don't think think reflexes were tito's problem as much as he just didn't know how to deal with Wright technically at all; his feet were all over the place from clumsily circling right with all his weight on his front, constantly out of position, iirc he averaged about one landed jab per round. Maybe a younger version was technically better

 

I think Tito's technical skills definitely eroded over time, as did his balance. And of course, his ability to pull the trigger had eroded by then.

That's why I said it's similar to Tyson. Mike's skills and balance also eroded. Mike had BEAUTIFUL footwork and balance in his prime, but it was pretty shitty post-prison and he could be easily pushed off balance, as Holy displayed.

I guess there is a difference though, Tito NEVER had great footwork, even in his prime, unlike Tyson who had some of the best offensive footwork ever.

 

One symptom of mike's footwork decline : the way his positioning on the outside changed from lining his left foot up with his opponents left so he came in at an off centre angle to just coming straight down the middle.

 

Exactly. And that's probably a combination of his footspeed declining and him totally disregarding the teachings and Cuss and Rooney, and simply looking to bulldoze opponents with no regard to skill.

That's why it's a totally different ballgame if Holy faced the 80s Tyson.

 

I think Tito would have won a decision pre-Hopkins mainly because Winky himself was a different fighter back then, people forget.

Younger Winky was more offensive and RISK TAKING in his approach. He wouldn't just jab and turtle up. And even if he did, Tito would have been able to punch WITH him, and that right there was the key in their 2005 fight. Tito's offensive reflexes weren't quite the same, especially 5 years removed from his prime at 160 pounds. I don't think Tito knocks him out, though. It would be a tough fight for him.

Just my two cents.

 

Regarding Floyd vs Pac...

I think a prime Pacquaio gives Floyd all he can handle...possibly wins.

"HOWEVER"

You cannot judge their actual snoozefest as any gauge. Floyd didn't want any part of many until he saw Manny like this...

 

Floyd vs Manny is very difficult to assess because they both peaked at different weights, in different years.

Here's how I see it... Manny peaked in 09 and I feel he would have beaten Floyd at 147 at that time. I also feel peak Manny was a better welterweight than Floyd was.

Casual fans are under the impression that Floyd's peak occurred recently, but in REALITY, Floyd's true peak was 04-05 at 135-140.

For the most ACCURATE mythical matchup involving the two, I think we should use 140. The Floyd that beat Gatti vs the Pac that beat Hatton.

If we use those two versions, I'd pick Floyd. The Manny that beat Hatton was a BEAST, but the Floyd that beat Gatti still had the insane speed and offensive reflexes that he's lacked in recent years, and I think he'd counter the Hell outta Manny and possibly even stop him late, since he still had killer instinct then.

So, once again, in 09, at 147, I think Pac wins.

At 140, peak-for-peak, Floyd wins.

 

What about Whitaker vs both Tito and Oscar 93 circa?

I think Whitaker's decline began around 95 the first fight with Rivera, though Whitaker was still great.

But I think a year or so prior, Whitaker at his welterweight best has no problems with Rivera.

 

Considering Oscar didn't even beat 97 Whitaker IMO, I definitely don't see him beating a younger/sharper Whitaker.

Tito would always be difficult for Whitaker at 147 because of his height and range, but I think a young Pernell at his sharpest would outbox Trinidad in a competitive fight.

 

Continuing on, a prime Joe Louis would have taken apart Marciano.

And not to keep picking on Holy, but this is a guy who lucked out against several older versions, because I definitely don't think he'd beat a prime Foreman or prime Holmes.

 

My bad, that first Rivera fight was in 96... It's been a while since I watched it.

But yes, I agree. Oscar if anything, squeezed out a victory with workrate but it wasn't convincing.

Pea beats Tito but would probably have to overcome some scary moments.

 

Holyfield is the classic over achiever. At least at heavyweight he was. Was not as talented as either Tyson, Holmes, or Foreman IMO but he got the benefit of catching all those guys at the right time.

Prime Foreman would have dealt out a horrific beating to Evander.

 

Prime Leonard smashes Norris, but that's a pretty obvious one.

I also think a prime Curry smashes Norris, but that's more arguable.

A prime Vargas wouldn't have lost to Mayorga.

A prime Winky Wright would have beaten Paul Williams.

A prime Ray Mancini would have beaten Greg Haugen, but Haugen would always be tough for him.

A prime Carlos Ortiz would have beaten Ken Buchanan.

I think a prime Judah would have stopped Khan.

 

Agreed. Curry's sudden decline will always remain a mystery to me.

I think Hamed would have scored a KO victory over pre-Junior Jones version of Barrera. Marco didn't employ his skill as much as he did later on, and I think he'd have given Prince more chances.