For the life of me I cant see Oscar being that competitive. Hell, Mosley beat Oscar 8-4. You think Ray couldn't improve on that? It's a case where virtually everything Oscar did well, Ray did better. And Ray could do many things Oscar couldnt. I think Leonard dominates Oscar.
I had Mosley 7-5 over DLH but I see your point. The thing is, not even Leonard won every round against every guy. Marcos Geraldo won three out of ten against him half a year he fought Benitez, and Kalule won three out if eight. He did dominate guys like Green or Bonds, but Oscar was different class compared to them Oscar was no Hearns, but he wouldn't need to be to keep it somewhat competitive, and that is no shame for Leonard
Clear UD for SRL but I don’t see why or how he outclasses DLH. DLH can jab with him, he’s got comparable speed and footwork, good power in his left, solid chin... I think they’re physically about even. Leonard was just smarter and more of a winner. A bad start or flash knockdown could put DLH in the fight.
If it’s a 15 rounder... I definitely can see Oscar getting stopped on the ropes in the middle of a barrage.
Comparable speed my ass! You must be trolling with that statement. Leonard has an argument for GOAT handspeed. Oscar doesn't even have top 10 all time handspeed. You're the only one I've ever heard claim they're equal physically. That's laughable. Oscar was nowhere near as fast and as athletic as Leonard. Not nearly as fluid either, as Oscar always fought stiff. Leonard was faster of hand, foot, and MIND. Don't discount that last part... Leonard thought a lot faster than Oscar. I've said countless times over that Oscar did not have a great ring IQ for a HOF level fighter. Oscar had a better jab than Leonard. I struggle to think of anything else he had over Ray. But his jab alone isn't gonna keep him in the fight, since Leonard isn't a lead footed and weight drained zombie like Tito. Leonard would beat the Hell outta Oscar.
That fighting stiff part was a big issue for Oscar. I feel it's the reason why his stamina was mediocre. The guy always looked so damn tight in there. It's probably no coincidence that Leonard, Duran, Benitez, just to name three, were very loose and relaxed in the ring, and all three had stamina for days.
It’s totally a difference maker. The most relaxed and loose guys in the ring have the best stamina as opposed to guys who are totally right, tense, and stiff. Oscar is an example, as is Jermain Taylor. AJ as well. Oscar would burn up so much nervous energy in that fight that down the stretch in a 15 rounder against Leonard, he’d have an increasingly harder time keeping him off him. I could also envision Ray doing serious damage with those hooks to the belly as well. I actually have very little doubt Ray stops Oscar in a 15 rounder though he’d beat him up badly down the stretch in a 12 rounder too.
Leonard was really agile, he could punch with both hands and he was thinker and strategist, and I favor him for the same reasons you do. But as far as pure hand and foot speed there’s no edge either way. Outside of SRL hurting DLH to the body early and often I don’t see it as a blowout.
Don't really see why... I don't think there's any reason to doubt that guys who had great stamina over 12 would have it over 15 and guys that looked faded after 10 rounds would look even more so after 15
He’s on tape. Lol. More agile and generally fluid, better two handed puncher, better sustained offense and combos, but he hasn’t got any real edge in hand and foot speed. Since Leonard’s more scrappy with better stamina DLH has to make it somewhat of a chess match and his comparable talent and skills keep him in it, but it’s just unlikely he sustains an advantage in a tactical fight against a smarter equally as talented opponent. Plus his tendency to fade.
It seems like an obvious advantage for the guys that have actually fought 15 rounds. Plus guys train and pace for 12 rounds. If DLH had been around during 15 rounders he might’ve developed a much more negative, ugly style. Whether you’re the boxer trying to pace, the pressure guy trying to come on late, or the puncher looking to catch the guy, what you do and the decisions you make have a lot to do with how much time you have left. That’s why it’s silly when someone gets hurt in the 12th or fades late and people say “If it was 15 rounds...” The shit happened because it was the last round and one or both guys knew something had to be made to happen.
Never in my life have I heard someone claim DLH was every bit as fast as Leonard. Not even from the biggest of Oscar groupies. That's truly a wild claim. Ray was faster of both hand and foot, by a pretty substantial margin. Which is not to say Oscar was slow, not at all. The Cross Dresser had very good handspeed. But Ray was THAT fucking fast.
I don't buy it. I see no evidence that sluggish pacing or negativity were more common in the 15 round era than the 12th ... if you've got the stamina to be strong for 12, chances are you'll be strong for 15...
I agree with twerp on everything in this topic. DLH was lightining fast, probably as fast as Leonard. Not as good all around, and Leonard was a class above him, but speed was comparable. Same for the 15 rounds vs 12 rounds guys, It's like saying that a guy that never fought a 125 rounders like they did on the 1800's would have gotten wear out if he had to fight one. Depending on the length of a fight, you change tactics and energy output
So essentially, you guys are saying Oscar arguably had the GOAT handspeed? That's crazy talk. Leonard is closer in handspeed to Jones than Oscar is to either one. I guess what separates Roy is that Roy could throw blinding fast single shots AS WELL as blinding combos. But in terms of combination punching speed, Leonard is pretty close to Roy. Possibly even in terms of combo speed. Oscar isnt close to either. You and Terp are severely overrating Oscar's speed. And dont tell me I'm underrated it, cause recently I've been rewatching a lot of young DLH, and I've never claimed he WASN'T very fast. In fact, I think it would be fair to say a lot of newer boxing fans dont realize how fast Oscar was cause they only know of the old, slow Oscar that fought Floyd and Pac. HOWEVER, that don't mean he was as fast as Leonard.
I think Donald Curry was possibly faster than Oscar. Make no mistake Oscar had quick hands but Leonard’s speed was that freakish.
Leonard was faster in combo, no question , but i dont think he has much of an advantage, if any, with single shots
Curry had faster offensive reflexes than Oscar, and could counter faster, but overall Oscar had faster hands. Curry didnt throw particularly blazing combos.
That’s absurd. DLH had slightly faster hands, much faster feet and was a lot more agile than Curry. Leonard was more agile than DLH and he was a much faster thinker which made him more dynamic, but hand and foot speed were comparable.
To be clearly faster of hand and foot than a prime De La Hoya is to have Roy Jones level speed and Roy Jones was faster than SRL. I don’t necessarily think SRL is clearly one of the fastest fighters of all time, he was a great fighter who was fast. Once you get to a certain level of speed on a world level it’s hard to really rate pure speed. SRL doesn’t stand out like a Jones, he’s just on that high tier with a lot of other fast guys.
I agree about Curry. PR went overboard on that. But we wont beat a dead Sly on this Leonard thing. Ray had faster hands and feet than Oscar. Period. I dont see it being comparable. Like I said, Leonard should be compared to Jones in terms of handspeed. Oscar wasn't in the same speed league as either one.
Off the top of my head, I think the following guys had CLEARLY faster hands than Oscar in a P4P sense: Jones Camacho Taylor Leonard Ali Tyson Mosley Patterson Judah Davis Hearns Tapia: Young Tapia, before his layoff. I'll add Khan too. Obviously, Oscar was a better fighter than Khan by 15 light years, but PURELY in terms of handspeed, I think Khan was faster.
