Tragic ending, but still...

For anyone who's never watched this, Sugar Ramos vs Davey Moore (which of course ended in Moore's death) was one of the all time great featherweight wars.

 

Ramos looks way bigger.

 

Because he was.

Ramos was a huge featherweight.

Eventually would lose the featherweight title to Vincente Saldivar, who lit him up from all angles (kinda looked like the first Pacquiao in doing so).

Still, Ramos would be a tough fight for a lot of featherweight greats.

 

It's hard to watch the post-fight interview with Moore, knowing that would fall into a coma 30 mins later in his dressing him and never wake up. He actually sounded clear headed in the interview too... but his brain stem was fucked from falling on the bottom rope.

 

Ramos was a stocky guy... he even looked it at lightweight

unusual style, terrific puncher

 

He even dropped Carlos Ortiz.

I'd favor Sugar Ramos over guys like Morales, and Barrera, TBH.

 

He wasn’t the most consistent guy but on his best nights, he’s certainly even money with guys like that

 

His late career 10-rounder against Mando Ramos is a superb fight

 

As is Ramos' title winning effort over Cruz.

And of course, I always love watching the clinic that Laguna puts on Ramos.

 

I just wish that one was in better quality

 

True, it's not in terrible quality though - I've seen far worse.

 

Definitely but it’s black and white from a wonky camera position

 

I doubt you can get fucked up falling unconscious on the bottom rope. I get that this idea is part of boxing lore, but it doesn't make sense.

 

It's not part of "boxing lore" you simp, it's what the neurosurgeons who investigated the cause of Moore's death believed. They scrutinized the fight footage as well as Moore's brain and concluded that the nape of Moore's neck hit the bottom rope with enough force that it caused fatal brain swelling.

There was no bleed in his brain - only swelling (in ring deaths caused by punches theres usually brain hemorrhage) - which contributed to their conclusion that his death was caused by the rope impact, and not by blows.

Unless you're gonna tell us that you know better than neurosurgeons...

 

Viewing a videotape of the fight, they focused on Moore's fall against the bottom rope late in the 10th round. In what a doctor called a "million-to-one" accident, the rope had struck Moore like an expert karate blow.

Yeah, bullshit.

 

Now, wait I don’t think that’s what he-

Oh...

 

I think the bottom rope thing is what messed up Michael Watson as well.

 

Pffft unsubstantiated lore

 

Unfuckinbelievable...

 

It is.

 

Moore didn't even take enough punishment to kill him, which further strengthens the conclusion of the rope impact doing him in.

We've seen enough ring deaths to know the difference... guys like Duk Koo Kim, Johnny Owen, Bea Scottland, Dadachev, ect... these guys all took sustained beatings, and we can easily point to all the head trauma they took during the fight.

Davey Moore didn't take nearly that amount of punishment in the Ramos fight - it was a back and forth war, but neither man was taking the kind of beating that's been consistent in 90% of ring deaths. It's CLEAR as fucking day that it was a freak accident, and had Moore landed differently when got KD'd, he wouldn't have died.

But good ole Mike, try to convince us that BOTH neurosurgeons and our own goddamn eyes are lying to us...

 

Just reading and re-reading up on a lot of this now...........Howard Winstone must have been some fighter to even warrant 2 rematches with Saldivar never mind be competitive in them. Winstone apparently was missing parts of his right hand, fingertips, thanks to an industrial accident. Totally different era, a different age really.

Today Saldivar would be a 7 year guy, with 10 defences or so.

 

Saldivar was a fucking beast. Easily top 5-10 all time at 126. Also a top 5-10 all time Mexican great. I'd take him over Barrera, Morales, Marquez, and he's basically 50-50 with Sanchez.

A southpaw with power, accuracy, handspeed, a killer body attack, and among the best stamina of all time.

Winstone did very well early on in their first two fights (behind his beautiful jab), but in both fights, Saldivar took over late. His stamina was unreal, and he was immensely physically strong.

The third fight was more-less a one sided blowout, as the punishment Winstone took in the first two fights ruined him.

 

Here's the best fight in their trilogy, the second fight. Easily one of the best fights of the 60s. Saldivar doesn't get talked about nearly enough.

 

Saldivar was a great great fighter

I think his legacy gets distorted because he came out of retirement and wasn’t as good... but before that first retirement, he was amazing

 

Very few fighters from the 60's are well remembered especially by casuals. Ali, a bit of Frazier.....a bit of Bob Foster, maybe.

Same thing happened in the 1980's too of course. Drayton vs Hilton would be raved about if it happened today, Greatest Fight of Are Times if it happened today.

 

Saldivar ranks as the 4th greatest southpaw of all time, behind only Whitaker, Pac, and Hagler.

 

What, no Calzaghe? No Witter? Who made this list?

 

And I forgot Andy Lee.

 

And Naz....