Kownacki vs Helenius

Based On???...

Sorry, Hindsight Revisionism and Being Relegated to FODDER for Name Heavyweights of the 70's/80's Doesn't Count Either...

Objectively Speaking, NO ONE Devoid of "Good Ol' Days" Goggles Would Watch 2-3 Rounds Apiece of Stander and Kownacki and Come to the Conclusion Stander "Sucked Less"...






REED

 

He could stand in with frazier for a few rounds, beat Shavers, and he fought in the 70's which means he gets some credit by proxy.

That doesn't mean he was "good", it just means he's done way more than Kownacki did.

 

From the Bareknuckle Days to Current, Boxing Has Never NOT Had Fat Fighters...





REED

 

Yeah, Ron Stander fighting better than this guy doesn’t make Ron Stander “good” any more than my wife being taller than Prince makes her “tall”

 

Ok but this guy would suck if he was 50 pounds lighter ... the fact that he is fat (and like flabby, no muscle fat... not like Chris Arreola fat) just adds to the overall package of shittiness

He sucks completely ... he’s worse than Ron Stander and Ron Stander was awful

 

Kownacki is part of a troubling trend. 20 years ago, he'd have been called a Great White Hope. He'd have been half as obvious and twice as well "managed".

Now that tag doesn't apply, for a load of reasons.

But........the fact is it's a developed routine...get a local tough, feed him a few stiffs, name stiffs, a few highlight reel KO's and hey presto you got a guy who can move tickets and generate TV money.

Richie Melito was like this but he ran into Bert Cooper, who had fought Moorer, Holyfield, Byrd, Zolkin, Donald etc...and that's just before he fought Melito. That was the standard 22., 23 years ago.

Kownacki was on a similar trajectory having beaten.....Spzilka and........em...........old wasted Arreola.....and that's it..........and, even before Helenius, a World Title fight was there if he wanted it.

It's too easy.

 

"The Truth About" Earnie Shavers is He was a Great PUNCHER, But Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from a Great Fighter...

If You Look Up "Hard Hitting Fighters That COULDN'T Take a Punch", a Picture of Shavers Will Appear...

Nonetheless, we Live in a Boxing Climate that SHITS on Deontay Wilder, While Praising Earnie Shavers...








REED

 

Based on:

1) my eyeballs watching how each guy punches, moves and “defends” (as much either did)

2) Standing up to 4 rounds of horrible punishment from Joe Frazier that would’ve finished this Grimace-looking cunt off inside of a round

3) Managing a win vs a green but still dangerous Shavers

How do you think Butterbeaniski does against Frazier? Norton? He gets harpooned

 

the only comparison I've seen made between Wilder and Shavers was that he, Wilders, hit harder than the hardest hitter, arguably Shavers.

It's daft..........Wilder is better in almost every category, EXCEPT power.

Wilder stops guys, drops them, 10 counts them from time to time...........but Shavers was chilling dudes with his power. Guys would look like they'd just woken up from a really good wet dream and wanted to lie there enjoying it for a while yet.

I say Wilder was better than Shavers in almost every measurable category...speed, movement, height, reach etc...except power.

 

Shavers was more skillful, better technique

And that’s really saying something because for his time, Shavers technique was poor by world-class standards

 

Having SEEN Ron Stander, There's NATHAN In his Physical or Stylistic Makeup that Suggests he's BETTER than Kownacki...

6'3", 265lb, 76" Reach Kownacki Gets Stopped By 6'6 1/2", 240lb, 79" Reach Helenius and it AUTOMATICALLY Infers 5'11", 230ish, 70" Reach Ron Stander is BETTER than Kownacki???...






REED

 

The problem that I have with your eyeball test is that you recently said Carl Williams was better than Tyson Fury, too. That I can't personally see at all. Also the eye-test has failed several times in the history (even with Rsy Arcel), which is why I am sceptical about it.

I have no problem with your views however, even if we disagree on this instance

 

The guys you listed that ended up healthy had limited amateur backgrounds, didn't start boxing until they were old enough to drive. Norton is the only exception, as the reason he started slurring was due to a car accident.

Meanwhile, guys like Quarry, Ali, Benitez, Meldrick Taylor, etc. suffered CTE because they started boxing as kids. Sugar Ray Leonard probably could have gotten CTE if he didn't take multiple retirements but because he did that he appears fine

 

Well 5'11" 215lb Mike Tyson must have no chance. by that reckoning?

 

Wait a minute, you can’t say the eye-test has failed unless there’s some time machine boxing tourney that I missed

Arcel was a Jewish guy trying to reconcile his image of a man who was literally an idol (Benny Leonard) with cold hard reality without the benefit of YouTube videos and his sentimentality won out (at least publicly ... who knows privately)

I’m a guy with zero attachment to Carl Williams or Tyson Fury and I note that Fury is taller and weighs more... Williams is faster of hand and foot and has better technique... the film doesn’t lie

Just as the film clearly illustrates the superiority of Roberto Duran over Benny Leonard

You guys want it to be nostalgia but it isn’t ... I have no nostalgia for Carl Williams... I was playing with my legos or whatever in 1985, not watching Carl Williams box

These same eyeballs tell me that the 1983-84 Edmonton Oilers would have a hard time winning 10 games in the 2020 NHL (Gretzky would still win the scoring title though, ) because more than half the roster would never make it to the NHL today ... I definitely don’t want that to be true because 80s hockey was fucking THRILLING but it’s true... the players are way better, the goalies are from another planet and the strategy, especially on defense is far more sophisticated ... only the very best Oilers would still have jobs in today’s league... the rest? A lot of them wouldn’t make the AHL

 

Uuuuuh, Not Sure If You've Actually SEEN Him Fight, But Mike Tyson was Physically (Handspeed, Quicker Feet, Head Movement, 2-Fisted Power) SUPERIOR to Stander, Height/Weight Notwithstanding...

Not to Mention Stylistically SUPERIOR...

Stander Ain't Lasting 4 Rounds w/a Prime Mike Tyson Bruh...





REED

 

I’ve seen Ron Stander, REED... we’ve all seen him

Stylistic make-up? What does that even mean when we’re talking about a fighter this scrubby?

Furthermore, think of how preposterous this discussion is... You’re arguing about Ron Stander like he was ever considered anything in the 70s... he wasn’t ... he wasn’t a proper contender ... he was a journeyman tough guy ... this fat polish slob, on the other hand was being showcased ... he was expected to impress ... you think Stander ever was showcased or hyped like that? Of course not

 

How many rounds does this fat slob last with Tyson?

 

Butterbeaniski.

 

Ron Stander Received a HOME TOWN Shot @ the UNDISPUTED HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPIONSHIP Of the World, McDogg!!!...

THAT's "Preposterous" as Fuck Bruh...Obviously, He Was Considered SOMETHING...








REED

 

More than Stander...





REED

 

He received a shot because Yank Durham was protecting a one-eyed champion and Durham knew that even a one-eyed Frazier had one eye too many to lose to Stander

He wasn’t even ranked in the top 20

 

Based off of what? The one thing Stander could do was take punishment... this awful slob Pole just got finished off inside of a round by a guy that sucked ten fucking years ago

 

REED's Point Still Stands Though...

You're Complaining about Kownacki Being Showcased and Expected to Impress, But That's Just It, He Was Showcased Against Helenius, a Guy Who was KO'ed By a Guy (Gerald Washington) Kownacki Wiped His Ass w/...

Aside from employee, has ANY Fightbeater Ever Mentioned Kownacki's Name in Conjunction w/Winning a Heavyweight Championship???...

Stander Actually RECEIVED a Title Shot, in His Home Friggin' Town, No Less...






REED

 

Eyetest does fail within eras too though. Guys who have weird style don't pass the eye-test. Michael Spinks or Carlos Monzon don't look like ATGs, their results do. Vitaly was better than he looked too.

It is impossible to see how hard a guy hits for example, or how difficult or awkward he is. For example this Helenius guy told that only after sparring with Wilder did he realize Wilder was better than he looked. He isn't as open as he seems, and his shots are difficult to see.

You can only really tell how good a fighter is by comparing their results and when there are no common opponents it becomes difficult. Eyetest helps, but it is far from perfect

 

Monzon and Spinks look like dominant champs to me... not beautiful aesthetically but they are clearly expert fighters

Vitali too

It was hard to hit those three guys and even harder to not get hit by them ... that’s the game

 

Your point would only stand if

A) anybody thought Ron Stander was a good fighter in 1972 or now (nobody thinks this)

B ) Ron Stander was ranked at the time (he wasn’t and the matchup was so puzzling that even his wife joked about it because there was literally no logic to Stander even getting a shot)

 

That's kind of the point I was making, Stander was very much a journeyman that was touted as a journeyman. Kownacki had an aroma of progress to him, like he was being touted...the latest "Oh don't be fooled by how he looks" nonsense.

People need to remember that Andy Ruiz lost the rematch. Kownacki lost his last fight.

These guys are not polished dudes honing their craft daily.

 

What has to be said is that Kownacki wouldn't have gotten out of the first round vs this Norton.

Howard Cossell basically laid it out. A fat journeyman but the verbal commentary must also be juxtaposed with the fight, Stander was at least insanely tough.

 

Surely, Kownacki’s unnecessary 50 pounds of adipose would be too much for Norton???