From underrated to overrated... Larry Holmes

I'm not sure about Louis.

I think prime Brown Bomber might have blitzed Frazier.

Marciano, yeah, Frazier stops him. Rock was too small for Joe.

Frazier executes Patterson within 3.

Outside of Foreman, there's only 4 other heavyweights i could see blitzing prime Frazier: Liston, Tyson, Lewis, and Louis. Thats it. Those are the only guys who had the firepower and skill to do it.

 

Gimme Joe to win, and win by late KO.

I've spent a good bit of time studying Sonny. He's an absolutely fascinating human. And I agree that he is an extremely underrated fighter. An absolute piston of a jab, fight ending power and ring smarts he's rarely credited for. But I think Joe is a bad, bad style match for him. His low, bob and weave style makes him a tight target for Sonny's jab and straight, hard punches. And Joe has guts and stamina to spare. You have to near kill him to beat him (the second Ali fight was what it was, but Sonny couldn't ever fight a fight like that. Ever). I don't see Liston doing it, though I've no doubt he'd damn try and fall hard in the attempt.

Be a great, great fight. Would have loved to see it.

MTF

 

I think I agree on principle but I disagree with the central tenet. I don't think Liston hit quite hard enough to be that guy. Hard enough to break guys like Patterson, but not hard enough to break a guy like Frazier.

Tyson? All that power and uppercuts? Yeah, I see that, no bother. Lewis? Probably, aye, more often than not. But Liston falls just short, I think in my mind.

MTF

 

Good to see this forum becoming a boxing forum again, under some decent modding. Can only bode well and encourage more postings (mine included).

MTF

 

Tyson destroyed prime Holmes.

35 is prime age.

 

Agreed that liston is a bit overrated as a puncher

 

I'd say he is just a bit overrated as a puncher. He was obviously a hard, hard puncher, especially for the 1950s, but in historical terms, I'd rank him near the top of the second rank of punchers - below Tyson, Lewis, Foreman and maybe Louis/Marciano (maybe)

That's the rank puncher you need to be to wipe Joe out IMO (I'd pick Joe against both the old timers fwiw). Anyone else has to FIGHT him to win. Liston would definitely FIGHT him, and could win, but I pick Joe more often than not.

MTF

 

That's exactly what I said gringo ;)


I also got Frazier over Liston. I think he's a bit too punderous and not dynamic enough to beat a dynamo like Joe

 

Liston most certainly had the power to put Frazier out.

 

I dont think he had the power to bounce hin around the ring like foreman did

 

Liston would have steamrolled Frazier.

 

Indeed...

51% of the Credit Goes to Xplosive for CARING Enough to Take On the Challenge...49% of the Credit Goes to REED for Begging X/Campaigning for Him to Do It...





REED

 

Now you are overrating Liston and underrating Frazier. Liston was no Foreman.

 

The big fights have drawn us back. I watched Shiraaz take out Pitto in 12 rounds tonight and , uh, some other shit.

 

I do think that but having read Feebles post I am remined of Listons last fight when he got sparked. It's not hard to see Joe land a shot like that.

Now, I KNOW this is Old Liston but it's just a piece of evidence to be taken into account.

 

Looks like a brutal fight.

 

it’s about styles. joe only knew how to come straight forward and it costed him against a heavy handed guy who wants you to come at him like foreman. Stylistically Liston would have been a nightmare for Frazier.

 

I think the problem with rating Holmes is that we never got to see him against any truly great HWs while he was still in his prime. He missed out on the likes of a still-great Ali, Frazier, and Foreman and didn't fight the likes of Tyson and Holy until he was well past his own prime. Funny enough, I think he garnered more respect for taking Holy and McCall the distance as an old man than he did for many of his wins in his prime.

 

His win over Mercer certainly rejuvenated his career. But yeah. Norton was as close to a "great" that he faced. And he barely won. Plus, he went life and death with some less than stellar opponents. But yeah. I agree. People's tendency to either overrate or underrate him is due at least in part to his less notable competition.