Greater/Better: Roy vs Whitaker

Here we go.

Greater and better between the two most dominant fighters of the last 30 years.

 

Roy was greater, Whitaker was better IMO.

 

1. Holy shit, that was a fast reply!

2. I was actually gonna say the complete opposite. I rate Whitaker as slightly greater, but Roy was better.

 

I just checked my P4P list, and I have Whitaker mid-fifties and Jones around forty, so it's close. Can definitely see it going either way there. If you were tiering them up, you'd have to have them together.

But I think can Jones as being a better fighter, but it'll stick with Pete. I think his massive advantages in footwork and chin, as well as his advantages in reflexes and skills, make him better. But a guy who had power and speed like Jones, and being one of the most talented athletes ever, has an argument over just about anybody.

 

I agree with you. Roy at 168 lbs is my pick for the most unbeatable fighter ever, although I realize he isn't as proven as some of the best. Whitaker's body of work all in all is better, narrowly

 

What 50 fighters are greater than Whitaker and Jones????

 

This is the part where I get laughed out of town

#01. Harry Greb
#02. Sam Langford
#03. Henry Armstrong
#04. Sugar Ray Robinson
#05. Ezzard Charles
#06. Benny Leonard
#07. Muhammad Ali
#08. Roberto Duran
#09. Bob Fitzsimmons
#10. Archie Moore

#11. Joe Louis
#12. Tony Canzoneri
#13. Willie Pep
#14. Sugar Ray Leonard
#15. Jimmy Wilde
#16. Terry McGovern
#17. Jimmy McLarnin
#18. Joe Gans
#19. Barney Ross
#20. Packey McFarland
#21. Sandy Saddler
#22. Tommy Loughran
#23. Gene Tunney
#24. Ike Williams
#25. Emile Griffith
#26. Carlos Ortiz
#27. Carlos Monzon
#28. Jack Britton
#29. Fighting Harada
#30. Marvin Hagler
#31. Kid Gavilan
#32. Ruben Olivares
#33. Manny Pacquiao
#34. Mickey Walker
#35. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
#36. Michael Spinks
#37. Tommy Hearns
#38. Roy Jones Jr.
#39 Julio Cesar Chavez
#40. Freddie Welsh

#41. Manuel Ortiz
#42. Bernard Hopkins
#43. Eder Jofre
#44. Tommy Gibbons
#45. Charley Burley
#46. Miguel Canto
#47. Holman Williams
#48. Maxie Rosenbloom
#49. Vicente Salvidar
#50. Evander Holyfield
#51. Salvador Sanchez
#52. Wilfredo Gomez
#53. Larry Holmes
#54. Lou Ambers
#55. Pernell Whitaker
#56. Jose Napoles
#57. Alexis Arguello
#58. Midget Wolgast
#59. Luis Rodriguez
#60. Jimmy Bivins
#61. Johnny Dundee
#62. Teddy Yarosz
#63. Lloyd Marshall
#64. Johnny Kilbane
#65. Billy Conn
#66. Jake LaMotta
#67. Mike Gibbons
#68. Wilfred Benitez
#69. Fidel LaBarba
#70. John Henry Lewis

#71. Rocky Marciano
#72. Pete Herman
#73. George Dixon
#74. Abe Attell
#75. Tommy Ryan
#76. Harold Johnson
#77. Lennox Lewis
#78. Ismael Laguna
#79. George Foreman
#80. Kid Williams
#81. Eusebio Pedroza
#82. Ted Kid Lewis
#83. Chucho Castillo
#84. Pancho Villa
#85. Beau Jack
#86. Young Corbett III
#87. James Toney
#88. Freddie Steele
#89. Willie Joyce
#90. Jack Delaney
#91. Sammy Angott
#92. Frank Klaus
#93. Young Corbett II
#94. Stanley Ketchel
#95. Cocoa Kid
#96. Mike O'Dowd
#97. Soldier Bartfield
#98. Lou Broulliard
#99. Young Peter Jackson
#100. Leo Houck

#101. Joey Maxim
#102. Flash Elorde
#103. Bob Montgomery
#104. Panama Al Brown
#105. Dick Tiger
#106. Fritzie Zivic
#107. Erik Morales
#108. Ernesto Marcel
#109. Freddie Miller
#110. Rocky Kansas
#111. Benny Lynch
#112. Jack Dillion
#113. Bert Lytell
#114. Ken Overlin
#115. Lupe Pintor
#116. Lew Tendler
#117. Juan Manuel Marquez
#118. Oscar De La Hoya
#119. Eddie Booker
#120. Jimmy Britt
#121. Lockport Jimmy Duffy
#122. Azumah Nelson
#123. Mike McCallum
#124. Carlos Zarate
#125. Pascual Perez
#126. Newsboy Brown
#127. Kid Lavigne
#128. Ceferino Garcia
#129. Sammy Mandell
#130. Aaron Wade

#131. Battling Levinsky
#132. Billy Petrolle
#133. Joe Calzaghe
#134. Jack Kid Berg
#135. Philadelphia Jack O'Brian
#136. Antonio Cervantes
#137. Barbados Joe Walcott
#138. Rafael Herrera
#139. Tiger Flowers
#140. Carmen Basilio
#141. Jung Koo Chang
#142. Tommy Burns
#143. Jack Chase
#144. Baby Arizmendi
#145. Bud Taylor
#146. Nicolino Locche
#147. Joey Giardello
#148. Kid McCoy
#149. Marco Antonio Barrera
#150. Willie Meehan

 

Ah fuck it, go on. I recently revamped quite a big bit of it, and haven't gotten any thoughts or feedback. I wasn't gonna ask for any, but since it's now out there. Fire away.

 

The lists are subjective, so no, I won't laugh you out of town, but one observation - Ruben Olivares is starting to get insanely overrated.

I can't objectively say that Olivares was as great nor as good as Roy, Whitaker, and Floyd, and bear in mind I can't stand the latter of those three. We're talking about three guys with insanely high peaks, strong resumes, and great longevity.

I can't say that Olivares got enough done in his early-to-mid 20s to warrant being placed over them.

Beating Rose is a great scalp, taking 2/3 from Castillo is nice, but he was still beaten 1/3 by Castillo and destroyed by Rafael Herrera in the heart of his prime.

Moving up in weight, he was way too inconsistent/dodgy, and beat guys like Chacon, but still got stopped by guys like Art Hafey.

I just feel like the legend of Olivares is getting a bit blown out of proportion.

I also might put more of an emphasis on the eye test than you, and I understand it's a "greatness" list, but the eye test simply will not allow me to say that Greb and Langford were as good as Robinson and Duran.

Boxing skill and ability evolved since the Greb/Langford era, and if you were to watch all of them, without knowing who any of them are, 100% of people would say that Robinson and Duran look like the much better fighters. Same with Jones.

Greb and Langford were crude by modern standards. And by modern, no, I don't mean the 2000s. That's why personally, no, I wouldn't give Greb much of a chance against a Hagler, Monzon, Jones. Their skill and talent level were just far above his, and I've looked at the limited footage to TRY and find something spectacular, but I just can't see it.

Those are my only thoughts for now , but like I said, the lists are largely subjective, at least you made one .

BTW, I know this post will put a smile on the face of @Ugotabe Kidding since I actually called out the old timers.

I do feel sometimes modern guys are sold toooooooooooo short on all time lists.

In my mind, Pac, Roy, Floyd, and Whitaker are all top 20ish greats. Worst case, top 25.

I can't reconcile with starting to put 30-40 somethin guys above them.

 

Oddly I don’t really enjoy watching either guy, but for my money Roy is greater and better.

 

I have the EXACT same fighters in my all-time top 5, just in a different order.

This is exactly what my 7-9 would look like, with Walker rated above them at #6.

 

Roy with the narrow edge in both categories currently, though I’ve previously had him below Whitaker in overall greatness.

I’ve got Roy 19 spots higher than George, and Whitaker 29 spots higher. And since he was brought up, I’ve got Olivares 31 spots lower.

 

Robinson, Duran, Armstrong, Leonard, Ali, Pep, Louis, and Charles would be my top 8. In that order. I'd have to seriously think about wh0's my 9-10, but I don't think it's crazy at all to have Pea at 9 or 10.

My brain will simply not allow me to call that caveman Greb better than Whitaker.

 

Charles below Pep, Leonard and Louis brings me immense pain.

 

Now you know how I feel with Olivares above Roy and Whitaker .

 

There’s no fight footage of Greb, dude. Not sure how you can have such a strong opinion of his abilities without any.

I’ve a history of using the introduction of the Walker Law in 1920 as my “cutoff point” for the modern era. Greb spent 6 years in the modern era as one of the best fighters in the world, by that rule.

The reality is that any paradigm shift in boxing history (gloves, round restrictions, weight classes, glove sizes, weigh in times, etc.) has led to very gradual changes in the sport. The kind of evolution that takes place over too many years to exclude this fighter or that one from the discussion logically.

 

Other way around, I'd say! Not much in it either way, though.

 

I wouldn't laugh at anyone putting together a serious p4p top 150 - rather you than me, though!

For one horrible moment I misread Freddie Welsh as Freddie Roach. Now that would have been funny.

 

I'm talking about the sparring footage.

 

I know I say it every time I make serious changes, but I'm not done. I'll never be happy with it, but I do agree with the guys here that Olivares above Mayweather and Pacquiao is a stretch and on my part, an oversight. I also noticed I don't have Lionel Rose where I want him, or Chang. That'll have to change, among other little things.

 

Against a former champion who began his career in the 19th century. Nothing about the effort or demeanor from either man in that clip showed any hint of seriousness. Looked like neither really knew how to go about the session.

 

I would also add that Pac has to be the Asian GOAT.

I love Harada and all, but Manny just got too much done over too many years to have Harada above him.

 

only because we didnt get to see a juiced to the gills harada move up and knock the shit outta carlos ortiz.

 

I used to think so as well, but I put a lot of emphasis on résumé, and Pacquiao has nothing to match two wins over a prime Jofre. I also don't buy the weight excuses, Harada was much smaller which more than makes up for that.

 

Good point .

 

Last thing, on my list I would have Spinks higher than you have, but it's your opinion.

Spinks is a top 20 guy IMO, and I certainly consider him both a better fighter and greater fighter than Ruben Olivares. Far less holes in his game than Olivares had.

 

For me, the primary difference between Olivares and Spinks is that one had a granite chin, while the other didn't. For me, outside of that, they're pretty much equal in every way. No discernible advantages in skill or talent, IMO.

And it's funny, I was actually thinking I had Spinks too high. Now I'm definitely thinking I have Olivares too high.

 

Spinks was a lot better defensively, and for my money, a much better thinker.

If they were the same natural size, I see no reason why Spinks doesn't take Olivares apart just as Herrera did.

 

You chaps need to invite Donald Miller if you want to create all these lists

 

He wasn’t much smaller, though. He just turned pro a lot younger. Therefore, he started off lighter and naturally spanned a wider weight range over his career. They were both prime at Bantamweight and both fought at the highest level as Featherweights. Jofre had an inch in height and two in reach on him. That’s really the only disparity. I thought Harada looked like the bigger man in the rematch, in fact.