Fights where the outcome changes if the loser was prime

We've done this thread before, but not in a while. List some fights where you feel the outcome would change if the loser was in their prime.

The only rule is... they can't be PAINFULLY OBVIOUS choices where a complete bum beat a great that was shot to pieces. In other words, don't list Tyson vs Danny Williams, or Chavez vs Willy Wise. Those are just painfully obvious that the outcome changes if the loser was prime. They have to be between two quality fighters.

Some that come to mind:

1. Leonard-Norris: This is probably the least debatable. I don't think there's anyone outside of Terry's immediate family that thinks he could have beaten the 81 Leonard.

2. Louis-Marciano: Prime Louis takes Rocky apart.

3. Jones-Calzaghe: Prime Roy would have lit Joe up.

4. Chavez-Tszyu: Prime Chavez dismantles Tszyu.

5. Ali-Holmes: The 60s Ali would outclass Larry by a lot.

6. Tszyu-Hatton: There's sometimes push-back on this one, and I get it. But I still can't see Hatton beating the circa 99 Tszyu.

7. Tyson-Lewis: I get that this one is very controversial, as a lot of people think Lewis beats any version of Tyson, and I can't fault them. It is possible that Lennox whups any Mike. However, I tend to think that the 88 Tyson would be too much for Lewis. But it is debatable.

8. Pedroza-McGugian: Prime Pedroza would taken McGugian apart.

9. Chavez-Oscar: This one is also controversial, but I think the 1990 Chavez would have beaten Oscar at 140.

Others?

 

I would take prime Mike over Lewis but I do think Lennox gives him problems. I think Tyson gets to him mid to late.

I also think Mike would have beaten Evander if it was the 86 version. Holyfield back then was more brawl happy and I don’t think he had found steroids yet.

And I don’t care what anyone says, but I think the 2000 Trinidad that was wrecking shop at 154 beats the Winky Wright of 2000. I don’t think it’s pretty or anything, but I think Tito would have been able to punch through and around that guard, vs the Tito who couldn’t even let go of punches in 2005. I think Tito wins a close but deserved decision, unless Winky opens up the way he did against Vargas.

Hamed vs Barrera is one for me. I personally feel that Prince had lost some of the hand speed and reflexes that made him so awkward and hard to deal with. Barrera also hadn’t quite fallen in love with boxing and playing it safe. A 95-96 version of Hamed probably KOs Barrera in a violent blood bath.

 

I think its highly possible the 95 Hamed beats Barrera, yeah.

 

I'd add Holy-Foreman.

Evander is too hittable for the 73-74 Foreman. He gets stopped imo

 

Young Foreman would have brutalized any version of Holyfield imo.

 

Hatton vs. Cool Vince
Tommy Morrison vs. George Foreman
McCall/Spinks vs. Holmes
Taylor vs. Hopkins

 

Cotto vs Mosley: Cotto wouldn't have beaten the Mosley of 2000. He barely, barely scraped by him in 07.

Norris vs Curry: I don't think Norris would have beaten the 85 Curry.

 

Fat Vargas and fat Mayorga fought, so add that to the list

 

Yeah, prime Nando would have battered Mayorga.

 

Although Manny was the better/greater fighter than Oscar, do you think he might just be too small for a 97-00 Oscar at 147?

 

I would guess so. But i also thought that the real fight would he a mismatch in dlh favor...

 

Yes, I do.

I think a young Oscar beats Pac at 140-147, even though Pac is a better fighter.

 

Benitez-Hilton.

Prime Benitez would have boxed circles around Hilton.

 

Buchanan vs Ortiz.

Buchanan wouldn't have beaten the early-to-mid 60s Ortiz. He would still put up a good fight, but prime Carlos was out his league.

 

Duran vs Vinny Paz, probably

 

prime Duran erases Benitez

 

prime Hagler deletes SRL

 

It depends. They fought at 154. Benitez would always beat Duran at 154. He was simply a better junior middle than Duran was.

At 147, yeah, I would take Montreal Duran over Will.

 

This argument from Hagler fans/Leonard haters doesn't really make sense. While Hagler was past his prime, so was Leonard. Ray was coming off a 3-year layoff for Christ Sake. What is true is that the 1981 Hagler would beat up the 1987 Leonard.

However, if Leonard moves up to 160 in 1981, when both were at their peaks, then I suspect we have yet another close, controversial fight on our hands. Hagler was a lot sharper in 81 than he was 87, but so was Leonard.

The notion that prime Hagler would destroy Leonard is nonsense, and is just rooted in Leonard hate. No one would destroy a prime Leonard. No one.

 

you're welcome to dispute it, but i'm of the opinion that the 81 Hagler beats the 81 Leonard. it's probably why SRL waited until 87 to make the fight.

 

Wlad vs Fury and Joshua

 

I agree totally with Joshua but disagree entirely with Fury. Wlad was past his prime but I don't think the defeat had anything to do with age really. It was about Wlad needing to set his feet to punch. That problem is always going to be there whether it's a young Wlad or old Wlad.

 

I think wlad age had barely anything to do with his losses in both fight. Even against aj, he lost because of weaknesses he showed through all his career. He was looking his usual self before the ko. I guess a younger wlad might have gotten aj out of here when he had him hurt, but even then, it's far from a foregone conclusion

 

I think Joshua could be competitive for a few rounds with a younger Wlad purely because (at that time) he was a big fella with self-belief who could put together some nice, fluid combinations. However he gets hit with the right hand too much and I think young Wlad gets him out of there before he can gather a second wind after he gasses. Wlad was just way more talented.

 

Fury with his reach and movement is definitely always a problem and he might have beaten even prime Wlad.

However, even though Fury won the bout about 9-3, he won most of his rounds like 5-3 in landed punches, they were very close and quiet. Younger, sharper Wlad might have captured more of them. He seemed to have lost a step as he had a poor showing against Jennings right before Fury.

Against Joshua I believe prime Wlad doesn't get hit with all the same punches, and finds a place for his counters better.

Wlad did good there, but it was a bit like Holmes vs Holy in a sense. Holmes looked in many ways like prime Holmes: the jab was still there, the clever moves, the sound defense and poise. Also Holyfield's sharpness would always be a problem for him. It is still obvious prime Holmes would have done even better

 

Rjj- Glen Johnson

I think Pacquiao may have been lucky with Morales on the slide when he beat him in the return fights.

Not so sure about Ali-Holmes or Marciano-Louis.

Tszyu-Hatton definitely. I think Chavez was already past it when he finally lost to Randall and even in the Whitaker fight.

 

Its true that wlad seems to have declined going by the Jennings fight. Still, i doubt wlad would have been more willing to throw his hands even in his prime against fury, cause doing so, he would have gotten touched more by fury.

Against aj, it's harder to tell, but still not sure him being in his prime would have made a difference, since at the end of the day, it was his chin that betrayed him, not his skills

 

What about Carlos Ortiz v Ken Buchanan?

 

I mentioned that one. Its a good example.

 

Damn, so you did.