Is there any fighter since who'd beat a prime Napoles?

Below 147?

I'd only pick Duran, personally.

 

No. He and Duran would be a fight for the ages at 135, probably the best fight of all time. But Napoles would beat him- he would out Duran him.
What would really intrigue me is a fight with Benny Leonard, because Benny has been such an influence on my way of thinking about boxing.
Ike Williams would make him work.

 

Oustide of Duran (whom you already mentioned), I would say that Pryor, Whitaker, Pac, and Floyd were good enough at 140 to where Napoles isn't a lock over them. He might be favored, but it isn't some foregone conclusion.

Outside of those four (five, counting Duran) Napoles is a pretty safe bet over anyone below welter.

 

Napoles would absolutely thrash Pryor and Pacquiao at 140, IMO

 

Oscar has a remote chance ONLY because prime Oscar had a knack for cutting guys, and Nap was cuttable. So there's always that possibility DLH's jab could slice Napoles open.

A cut is Oscar's only chance though. Short of that, Napoles was just way better.

 

I always forget Benitez at 140.

Again, Napoles is the favorite, but Benitez was too good to count out.

 

Nah, I wouldn't give Benitez much of a chance. Especially at 140; which IMO was his worst weight and where he was most fragile. Napoles would bully him up-close and stop him mid to late for me.

 

That argument has never made sense to me. If he was fragile he wouldn't have beaten one of the top 5 junior welters in history.

You're overrating Napoles a bit. He wouldn't go through a fighter as good as Benitez by the mid rounds.

 

You can beat good fighters and still be fragile. Especially with all-time great feet and defence. Btw, I'm not saying he was fragile specifically at 140 (although no 17 year old is standing up to Napoles' arsenal), I just don't think much of Benitez's durability in general. His lack of strength and inexperience is why I think Wil gets stopped earlier. At 147/154 I think Wil can go the distance.

I don't think Benitez was anywhere near as good at 140 as he was a few years later. And tbh, I probably don't rate Wil at his best as highly as you do.

 

i think benitez's best performance came at 140

 

Yeah, I don't think Napoles necessarily beats Benitez at 147, nevermind Wil "might go the distance".

Leonard and Hearns had a number of physical advantages over Benitez that Napoles just wouldn't have.

At 154? Benitez without question wins. Napoles proved nothing above welterweight.

 

There's nothing on Napoles' resume that suggests would just go through Benitez. The notion of him beating Benitez is very feasible, but suggesting he just stops him mid rounds is in fact overrating Napoles.

Curtis Cokes, while an excellent welterweight, was no Wilfred Benitez. Eddie Perkins wasn't one sidedly destroyed. A faded Griffith wasn't as capable as Benitez, and he wasn't destroyed.

There's just no precedence for it. If Benitez wasn't extremely formidable at 140, then Kid Pambele would have exposed that. There's also his final fight at 140 against Ray Chaves where Wil looked very big and sturdy at the weight.

Everything about the history of both guys suggests that if both were at their bests, it would be competitive fight.

Benitez had zero answer for Leonard and Hearns, but all due to respect to Napoles, but he wasn't as formidable as Leonard and Hearns.

 

Here's the Chavez fight. This was at 140. And no, I am no way implying that a merely solid fighter like Chavez was on par with Napoles, just showing that Benitez could be solid and sturdy at 140. He was sharp as Hell in this fight, then blasted Chavez out in the final round.



There's no way Napoles is going through Benitez. It would be a competitive fight.

 

Napoles definitely wins at 147. He's quicker, more skilled and experienced, and more talented. A fighter who struggles TWICE with Harold Weston, is not beating Jose Napoles. Weston did his poor man's act of Mantequilla and was a very rough night for Wil, both times.

The Napoles who fought Monzon was exactly the same as the one who fought Grey and Lewis. And he weighed exactly 154lbs. That version would beat Benitez as well, for reasons previously said but it's the closest fight of the three.

 

Napoles didn't have any success against Monzon though.

I haven't watched Monzon-Napoles in quite a few years, maybe 15 years, but I used to watch it often.

From what I remember, Monzon just felt him out, and when he decided to turn up the heat, Nap couldn't do anything to stop the beating.

Benitez was more accomplished at the weight. What he did to Duran and Hope was more impressive than anything Nap did above welter.

 

You've got the wrong side of things. I don't think it'd be completely one sided - and I haven't said that. Let me clarify what I think would happen here: it's a very good technical fight, where Benitez's counters land but Napoles' sets up pay off. It ends up falling into a pattern of Napoles drawing and baiting, then forcing Benitez back - even if he has to take a few to do it. Over time, the stronger guy with a massive punch starts to wear down the child, and he stops him somewhere between seven and eleven. I don't think it'd play out that way at a higher weight, I think the technical phase where things are nap and tuck lasts longer, and I think as Benitez grew up and grew into his frame and man strength, he does better and better. Napoles has an awful style for Benitez, and was a better fighter. He would always win.

The thing about Eddie Perkins and Emile Griffith, is that they both have great chins. Better chins than any teenager would have, and better chins than Benitez ever had. They could take the shots when they came. Benitez wouldn't be able to. Not all night.

Napoles was right on the same level as Leonard. I know you won't agree with that, but I don't see any reason to not think he was at least as good as Hearns.

BTW, you can stop trying to pitch footage to me. I've seen almost every title fight from both fighters. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Napoles did have success against Monzon. I had him sweeping the first four rounds. Yeah, he got battered in the fifth and sixth, but let's be honest, Benitez wouldn't have done any better. And that wasn't my point. My point was that the Napoles who fought Monzon, wasn't effected by the weight.

Benitez's acomplishments aren't going to fight for him.

 

And you can stop being arrogant. I could tell you that I was watching Napoles and Benitez well before you were born (which is true), but I didn't go there.

I didn't post the footage implying that you had never seen them.

 

How I view Benitez at 140 is that he was extremely lucky in a sense to have Cervantes in front of him that night. Among all genuine all-time greats at the weight, Cervantes, Locche and probably Ross are the ones who Wil matches up with best. He could take his time with Cervantes, figure him out. He wouldn't have to worry about somebody who's trying to think three steps ahead, or trying to crowd him and take him out. Wil could read Cervantes, and had the tools to box with him which nobody before that had. Not even Locche. Cervantes was a straight up, fundamentally sound fighter who - funnily enough, similarly to Monzon - liked to control the action at length than bring his firepower in. Put him in with somebody who's just as long, quicker and can read what's coming, and he became unstuck because he lost his ability to control him. It was a very good match up stylistically for Benitez, although obviously an insurmountable task which he overcame brilliantly.

Technically, Benitez at 140 was a phenom, and he had the speed, stamina and reflexes to match. But he didn't have the strength he did at the higher weights, not the toughness. And he was never exactly iron-chinned. I just think the top fighters at 140 were too mature for him. They'd either at some point realise they can win if they decide not to respect his punch (like Pryor and Pac), or they'd have too much experience for him (like Mayweather). And no, looking sharp and strong against Ray Chavez does not chance my mind. Especially when you look poor against Weston and Curry between title fights.

 

Saying I know what I'm talking about isn't being arrogant. If I was being arrogant I'd have said I'd seen more or knew than everyone in the thread. Given you're a massive fan of Benitez, I wouldn't even consider that I know about his career than you do.

But, I will say reading back that I did come across as a cunt. So yeah, sorry about that.

And if you did go there, I'd have been forced to annihilate you.

 

Yeah, it did come across as cuntish. I ain't mad at ya, I'm arrogant too.

No one questions that you know your shit. But remember, I was once you. I too was in my teens when I first started here. That's what endears me to your arrogance.

 

I'll rewatch Monzon-Nap tomorrow while I work. Like I said, I haven't watched it since around probably 2006 or so... on VHS. Maybe Napoles did better early on than I remembered.

It was the first fight I had seen of either, btw, at the time I bought it in 2000.

 

I wonder what Stinger did while watching Monzon and Napoles fight - his two Gods. Did he jerk off once, or twice?

 

joey vs chuck? thrice

 

It has been a pleasure watching George grow over the last few years. He reminds me to watch all Asian fighters I could only read about during their careers.

 

Fuck is he at? Last memory I have of him on general, I destroyed him on a debate when he tried to argue that Monzon was greater than Duran. He might be a nut, but I would welcome him coming back.

And while I'm thinking of it, where the fuck is UGO? He's been MIA for months.

 

I remember circa 2000, on the BoxingFanatics forum (which was the second biggest boxing forum at the time) there was an Asian fella on there who was huge on Jung Koo Chang. But at that time, there was just no way for any of us see any Chang fights. We could only take his word for it.

YouTube was a Godsend for the boxing fan.

 

@Punk or @Neil might recall the guy I'm talking about. I wanna say his name was Joony?

I think he was the first one to say that Chang was better than Ricardo Lopez. And on a forum comprised of mostly Mexicans, that didn't go over well.

 

Personally I think only the much bigger fighters like SRL, Hearns, and SRR absolutely thrash Napoles. Trinidad would also have a chance in stopping Napoles

Below 147? Only Roberto Duran IMO.

 

Me too. First fight I saw of either of them. From memory, Napoles made no inroads at all against Monzon but it wasn’t a one-sided beating from the start. I think Monzon just cranked it up gradually.