If Duran is gratist living fighter, then who's second gratist? Leonard, Pacquiao, Mayweather, Holyfield, Homes
I'd say the top 5 greatest living boxers are: 1. Duran 2. Leonard 3. Pac 4. Floyd 5. Roy HMs: Mike Spinks, Wilfredo Gomez, Miguel Canto, Holy, Chavez, Laguna, Hopkins, Lewis, Holmes, Hearns, Benitez, Ricardo Lopez, Tyson, Trinidad, Toney. I'm only listing retired guys for now (yes, I know broke ass Pac is technically back, and Floyd and Mike both do lame ass exhibitions). Hard to assess right now where Bud and Usyk stand in history, though both are obviously ATGs.
Marquez isnt even the greatest Mexican I left off. I forgot that Olivares and Zarate are alive. But yes, JMM as well.
Theres nothing "clear" about it; not when Zarate is a consensus top 3-4 bantamweight of all time. Zarate and Marquez are in the same range of my top 5 all time Mexican rankings. Take away Marquez having Pac's number, and I'd rate Zarate higher.
I dont understand calling Marquez "clear" over Zarate. If you value multiple weight wins, yes. But Zarate dominated the mid-70s over very fine comp at bantam before he ran into Gomez. He was recognized as #1 P4P at one point. Marquez was never a dominant champion and was never #1 P4P.
Marquez is a Weird One, Clearly Tooooooo GOOD to Be Excluded, Yet NOT QUITE Good Enough to Rate Very Highly... REED
My thoughts exactly. He's hard to rank. I have no problem ranking him over Zarate, I think there's a case for either. But its certainly not some far gone conclusion like JOM suggested. When ranking greatness, theres always camps that favor dominance over longevity, and vice versa. I dont think either camp is wrong, just different. I'm a staunch supporter of dominance over longevity.
Its clear as day. Marquez never was trashed like a cheap toy like Zarate was by Gomez. Beat better fighters and had a much longer stay at or near the top. That some rated Zarate p4p #1 cause he beat a very overrated Zamora (and that JMM was never ranked as such) is pretty much meaningless, since with hindsight we knows he was in no way deserving of that spot. And even if you removed JMM bouts against Pacman (which is a very weird argument to make), JMM probably still has the better win (I still rate higher a bit past his prime MAB to Pintor and Davila, much higher in fact)
You dont even follow the lighter weight classes and have admitted as such in the past. It shows because you think Zarate's whole resume is built on the Zamora win. Zamora's arguably not even his best win -- Rodolfo Martinez and Alberto Davila were both superb fighters and Zarate wrecked them. And by all rights Neil's boy Pintor should be on Zarate's resume -- it was a terribly robbery. How is Zamora overrated? Who talks about Zamora on a daily basis? When's the last time you heard Zamora called an ATG? Is Zamora even in the Hall? So how the fuck is overrated? Zamora utterly destroyed the very good Soo-Hwan Hong to win the bantamweight title and owns a one-punch KO win over (green but still quality) Pedroza. People only call Zamora one of the biggest punchers in bantamweight history, which he was. You say things with VERY little knowledge behind your words.
Ouuuff If you actually read my post, I never claimed that Zamora was his best win. In fact I explicitely named Pintor or Davila as is best wins (yeah he ''lost'' against Pintor, but it was a bad robbery as you said). I said that he was ranked by some p4p # 1 after the Zamora fight (and that Zamora was insanely overated before that fight), which is totally different. So if you want to argue a strawman, go ahead, but I wont indulge into this nonsense. And I follow tthe lighter weights, just not the midget weight.
As for the question, I think its clearly a 3 way race between Pcaquiao, Duran and SRL, I dont have a problem with anyone ranking one over the others. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but for me, SRL is nb 1
The best way to tear down a guy's resume is to call his best opponents overrated. It can be done with literally anyone. Marquez for me was an excellent fighter with an ATGs number. Theres no weight class -- not 126, not 130, not 135, not 140 -- where Marquez even cracks the top 10 all time, and I think theres something to be said about that when calling him "clearly" greater than a top 4 all time bantamweight.
Zamora was clearly overrated before the Zarate fight I honestly cant see how this can be debated. And I dont feel that it's fair to use the one weight class dominance with modern boxers. In modern boxing, weightclasses are pretty much meaningless. What's important is chasing the big names that are around the same weight that you are. But it's true that in older times, a lot of value was given to dominating one weight class, especially if it was one of the original 8
Zarate may have a better case over marquez if gomez wasn't allowed to commit more flagrant fouls than the 80s pistons and the Oakley mason Knicks combined when they fought!
You are free to make a case for Zarate. But if you have to somehow discount four of Marquez's best performances to do so? It's not very convincing.
For me true greatness is proved by how ypu perform against other great fighters. On this metric, JMM blow Zarate out of the water
