One of the best things about Pavlik

REED DOESN'T Disagree w/your Characterization of HOW Taylor was Successful, but REED Would Attribute that More to his ATHLETIC Advantages than "BOXING" Ability...

Pavlik COMPLETELY NULLFIED Taylor's Jab, Kept HIS OWN Jab N Taylor's Grill for a Large Part of BOTH Fights...Pavlik BEAT Taylor (& Everybody Else)w/a "1-2", Perhaps THE Most BASIC Principle of "Boxing" 101...

Pavlik's SLOW, FLAT-FOOTED & Not Terribly Gifted ATHLETICALLY, but he's a Very GOOD "Boxer"...Boxer-Puncher, Actually...A Large Key to "Boxing" is Ring Generalship, an Area that Pavlik DOMINATES More Times than Not...



REED:kidcool:

 

:bears:

I've said before and I reiterate again that I think Calzaghe is a stylistic nightmare for Pavlik.

I really, really like Kelly Pavlik. He has tremendous power in both hands and uses it with brutal efficiency to dominate opponents almost from the get-go. His willingness to walk through shots to land bombs of his own make him highly watchable and highly likable and he is unquestionably the best 160lb-er out there today.

However, Calzaghe would beat him handily IMO. Joe beats people who fight like Pavlik because they force the pace and allow Calzaghe to use his hand speed and athleticism off the back foot, meaning he can counter and move, counter and move all night long.

The comparison with Kessler is, IMO, quite an obvious one. I think Pavlik is a little better than Mikkel (though I consider both to be elite fighters) but they have very similar styles, strengths and weaknesses- both work behind the 1-2, looking to force the pace of the fight and throw bombs, both have reasonable chins and underrated defense BUT both have shown no evidence of a 'Plan B' to which they can resort when the tried and tested 'Plan A' isn't bearing fruit (though, to be fair to Pavlik, he hasn't really had to yet).

Also, there remains a question mark over whether or not Pavlik is one of those great 160lb-ers whose power doesn't quite carry to 168.

Joe is just too damn versatile for Kelly, who would have good success early doors and would hurt and maybe even drop Joe, but Calzaghe has shown that, not only is he one tough SOB but also a very clever, shrewd operator. He'd figure Pavlik out after four or five rounds and pull away down the stretch to a close but clear UD.

I'd love to see this fight made, though, and I don't see any reason why Pavlik wouldn't want to make it happen. He hasn't shown anything in the past to suggest he's frightened of a challenge.

MTF

 

Kessler would beat Kelly, Joe would dominate him.

 

Joe would beat Pavlik (not dominate him) and Pavlik would beat the shit out of Kessler.

 

I agree

His chin is just waiting to be cracked.

 

Forreal. How quickly things change. Jermain Taylor was considered among the most overrated fighters in the world until he lost twice. I remember people saying his performance against Pavlik in the FIRST fight was one of his best ever LMAO. A fight that ended with him sleeping in a corner. In the second fight, he damn near pulled it off with a very, very basic strategy. He simply didn't have the stamina (and NEVER HAS) to do it for twelve full rounds.

REED, I agree that Taylor used his athleticism. It is STILL boxing, just as much as Meldrick Taylor's style was still boxing. Taylor whizzed in an out, using an (ineffective) jab from the outside, giving Pavlik side to side movement, and moving in to unleash two-three punch combinations before moving away. That's boxing.

I like Pavlik a lot - he's the real deal. And he will clear out 160 with no problems. But honestly, that's not saying much given the division today. And while I'm sure Pavlik has no problems taking on a Calzaghe, his handlers will be a little wary - and with good reason. His lateral movement is non-existant, he can be hit and hurt, and he has not shown the ability to fight well backing up. Those are all gonna be HUGE issues against a versatile, strong and solid chinned-fighter like Joe C. Better for him to wait until the new king steps on the throne. Hell, that's what Joe C. did with the light heavies.

 

Ken - lest we not forget that before Calzaghe, Taylor had done better against Hopkins than ANYONE since Jones.

I thought those fights could have gone either way. I thought Nard edged the first one personally.

Either way, he was hardly a paper champion, quite the opposite in fact.

 

I actually thought Jermain was a very strong champion, and still could quite easily regain a belt at 160 and possibly as high as 175

 

Except for Bernard Hopkins, what true middleweight did he beat? And we're talking about a Hops who stayed at middle a bit too long. Not like he fought the same Hops Jones fought.

I would also add that I thought Hopkins won the first HANDILY and drew in the second. And then Taylor proceeded to look worse and worse with every fight after, looking like complete and utter sh*t in the one prior to Pavlik. I actually had Spinks winning that fight up until I fell asleep in round 8.

Nearly everyone was calling for Taylor's head back then (my God, revisionist history is a muthaphukka!). Now that he's LOST twice you'd think he was the second coming.

Whatever the case, 160 isn't exactly the world's strongest division. Pavlik will be fine there. 168? Not so much....not now anyway.

 

Mex who said this:

I think that about sums up what people thought of Taylor prior to Pavlik. A guy who managed two "close" fights with Hops but otherwise...sucked.

 

I would like to point out that Taylor clearly beat Hopkins the first time. Every round was easy to score and Taylor won seven of them.

 

Again, REED Doesn't DISagree w/what U're Saying, Brother DAZED...REED just disagREED w/the Idea of Taylor "OUTboxing" Pavlik..."Outboxing" Implies that Taylor was WINNING the Fight or BEFUDDLING Pavlik...

@ BEST, Taylor was Fighting on EVEN Terms N the RE...But even Then, REED NEVER Got the Sense that Pavlik WASN'T In Control of Things...


REED:hammert:

 

I like Abraham a lot, but Hopkins absolutely had the best claim to the 160 title and Taylor beat him fair and square twice. There's nothing paper about his title. And now there's nothing paper about Pavlik's; it is the best claim to the middleweight title.

 

I watched the fight with a notable ex-fighter and a bonafied Pavlik nuthugger (as much as I love him, I gotta call it like I see it). All three of us had the fight in the air going into the championship rounds. Two of us had Taylor slightly ahead - the other had it even.

In any case, none of us (except the ex-fighter who, prior to the fight, pointed out a number of Pavlik's flaws Taylor could use to his advantage) thought Taylor would do as well as he did. But I don't think it's so much what Taylor did that surprised as much as what Pavlik didn't do. I thought he exposed some weak points in Kelly's game.

Not that it matters - there isn't a 160lber on Earth that could take advantage of them. But there are other fighters who can and will.

So does everyone get the same icons? Where's my MC Hammer???? Why do I have :mj:??

 

I actually think that Kessler is better than Pavlik. But Pavlik might give Joe a tougher fight than Kessler, because Kelly will want it more than Kessler did, and because at Joe's age, its possible thats he's slipped some from the Kessler fight. Still, I gotta favor Joe by decision. I think BOTH fighters could be dropped during the fight.

Arum must have alot of confidence in Kelly if he makes the Calz fight, cause Abrasmurf would be a much easier fight for Kelly.

 

Pavlik is better than Kessler and would beat Kessler.

Better stamina, bigger punch variety, slightly harder puncher, and more balls.

 

And Kessler is quicker, has a better defense, is a better counter puncher, throws better combinations, and probably has a better chin.

Power is about even I would say. And Kessler has a good punch variety himself, so thats even as well.

Kelly has more heart, I'll agree with that. If they fought, it'd be just about an even fight, and would depend on what type fight it is. If Kelly could force Kessler into a brawl, he'd win. A boxing match would favor Kessler.

 

I disagree, I think Kessler is more basic. They are both 1-2 boxer punchers, but I feel pavlik simply has more depth to his arsenal, not to mention a higher workrate.

Kessler has an edge in speed, but that is negated by Pavlik's LONG arse arms, and the way he gets full extension - as per the first post in this thread ;) Not to mention his great timing and accuracy.

Kessler is a very good fighter, and a great win for Joe, but he is nothing special, just a very good, solid, world class fighter, and good champion.

Pavlik is something a bit more special IMO.

It's not like Pavlik woujld blow him out, I think if the 2 did fight, Pavlik would win a close but clear decision. I just feel he is the better fighter overall.

 

MWS, are you driving that Pavlik bandwagon?

 

No, REED is, I'm just the co driver, keeping these rolling, making sure everything runs nice and smooth.

 

::artie:

 

dsimon writes:

You beat me to it brother Reed. What has Kenneth been smoking? :notallthere:::

Seriously Taylor proved he is a bigger puncher than a lot of people thought that fight with Pavlik but he didn't outbox anyone.

 

dsimon writes:

Basically Pavlik might suprise Joe. Yes Joe has better handspeed, but Pavlik has good skills and might be able to hurt Joe. I wouldn't be surpised to see Pavlik beat Joe with his relentless punching.

 

Pavlik has an edge in both height and reach, but he and Kessler not that far apart and I think Kessler's punches are faster and shorter. He could be first in a lot of exchanges against Pavlik.

Another thing is Pavlik is very slow footed. That hasn't hurt him much yet against some of his opponents, but if he fought Calzaghe in a big ring - which may happen if they fight in Europe - I think it would be more noticeable.

 

i like pavlik but Id pick calzaghe and kessler over him.

 

Another Good Thing about Pavlik is his POTTY MOUTH...Dude Uses PROFANITY N just about All of his Interviews...


REED:cheer:

 

i usually agree with you, but not this time.

i'll call it right now and say that if the two fought kessler would knock pavlik out and early.

and i think pavlik is a very good middle.

 

The best thing about Pavlik is that he is a FIGHTER. No bullshit, no talk, no hoopla.......he fights.

And he isn't the fastest, strongest....he is a Fighter.


I hope he gets Calzaghe's "O".

 

one of the things that makes him "so" dangerous is the way he changes up the timing on his 1-2. sometimes the right hand pauses behind the jab, sometimes it lands virtually simulataneously. this makes it impossible for his opponent to be prepared for the right hand. and it's why the right hand pavlik hurt Taylor with at the end of the fight hadn't hurt him earlier. he changed the timing on it behind the jab. he does some sophisticated things in there, and he's also good at breaking through guards using his jab.