One of the best things about Pavlik

I'd take Calzaghe by early stoppage if they fight anytime soon. Like I said prior to the Kessler fight, it's going to take more than a 1-2 to beat Joe.

Dont get me wrong, he'd probably ktfo guys Joe went 12 with (Bika, Ashira, Salem)

but I think I'd pick Kessler to throttle Kelly as well..

Unless he really cannot make weight, Pavlik should stay at 160.
People are going overboard about Pavlik, forgetting that he almost got KTFO by a guy who hasn't destroyed anyone since Daniel Edouard. They fail to realize that one mistake almost cost Kelly the fight. Sometimes it's almost as if HBO wasn't the only ones looking for a new posterboy.

 

Yeah does do some sophisticated and subtle things in there, I don't know why people act like he's basic. At first glance he looks like a 1-2 puncher, but there is a lot of depth to his style, he has skill, and thus far nobody has managed to outbox him or outslug him.

The person who beats pavlik will have to be very quick for a middleweight, and slippery.

That's why Calzaghe should be the favourite I guess, he is quick, slippery, versatile, and most of all - very unpredictable.

 

You are forgetting one thing. Calzaghe can't punch. The shots that hurt Pavlik were big shots from Taylor. He was swinging to hurt Kelly. Calzaghe does not punch as hard as Taylor. Taylor isn't a huge puncher, but Calzaghe is even less of a puncher. Calzaghe doesn't throw punches to knock you out. When was the last time Calzaghe actually knocked someone out? I'm not talking about some shitty stoppage like the Manfredo fight either.

 

dsimon writes:

Thats the way I see it. I think that if one assumes Taylor is a better puncher than his record belies, which I believe, and that he punches harder than Joe, which i believe, then joe might have a problem hurting Pavlik with his shots.

Furthermore if Pavlik is not the slow footed amateur he appears to be (I say this sarcastically) then he should have a way to deal with Joe and not get beat to the punch consistantly like Left hook lacy, etc.

People are overestimating the Kessler win for Joe. Kessler really shut down considerably. The Hopkins fight was more telling. Hopkins was succesful and got to Joe and so would Pavlik when he realized Joe can't hurt him with his punches. pavlik has a way to get his punches in.

 

It depends really,..wether Pavlik is better than Kessler,.. if Kessler has a glass body,.. then Pavlik comes up trumps no question, but in a battle of fundamental 1-2 Euro-styles on the outside, I'll pick Kessler to dissect him with ease, Calzaghe beat Kessler by leaping in and out cautiously with feints, superb timing, fancy footwork and head movement,... and Ive never seen anything like that from Pavlik all at once,..and if he doesnt back up enough during one of Kessler's furious straight combinations, Pavlik's gunna get mipped quite alot.

 

Agreed. At first glance, you'd think that if Kessler couldn't beat him, then Pavlik wouldn't (since they're 1-2 type of guys). But Pavlik is a much better fighter inside (and willing to fight there). So that's a major distinction upon closer review. Plus, I just think Pavlik is meaner, doesn't load up like Kessler, and is more versatile.

 

Okay when did Taylor actually knock somebody the fuck out? :dunno:

The closest he came against an elite fighter was against some ultra versatile in-fighting specialist with excellent lateral and head movement, who happens to have an iron chin, and unlimited stamina. If I could only remember his name.

 

If you would read my post, you would notice I said Taylor isn't a big puncher but Calzaghe is even less of a puncher. Look at the shots that hurt Pavlik and tell me Calzaghe throws those kind of punches. He doesn't. The wide shot that hurt Pavlik was thrown with the intent to hurt Pavlik. Calzaghe is not that kind of fighter.

 

I think Taylor's punching power can't be questioned when you consider the shell he put Hopkins in and the fact that he hurt Pavlik pretty bad, who in his career has always shown a very sturdy chin.

 

Calzaghe's power is respectable, more respectable than Taylor for sure.
Calzaghe had Hopkins fighting like a cautious softy, I had Hopkins beating Taylor. Either Taylor or Pavlik to move up to 175 to fight Calzaghe and I'd definitely bet. The man with the best chance to beat Calzaghe was the southpaw killer Hopkins and it didn't happen.
The times I've seen both men down, I'd say Calzaghe handled it better, in one instance he got up and proceeded to KTFO his man in the same round. Calzaghe has been down early in more than one big fight and showed his pedigree by winning handily. Proven.
Mitchell can hit like a mule and Hopkins is the southpaw destroyer. Both respectable knockdowns. Taylor is no puncher and he had Pavlik just about done, in fact if they had stopped it in the 2nd round I wouldn't have complained, but I am glad they didn't. Seeing Taylor ktfo is priceless!

 

If they stopped that fight in the second round it would have been a very bad stoppage.

Calzaghe can't punch for shit, I'm sorry, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. He will not stop Pavlik, no way in hell.

 

This is exactly the kind of thing that made Joe so underrated for so very long.

Joe isn't a KILLER puncher, but he punches a LOT harder than people give him credit for. His KO record (albeit against some seriously shit oppos) is about 70%. Much more importantly, his quick, pitter pat flurries disguise a very important fact- in amongst the four or five quick, half turned shots is almost always one big shot which really hurts his man. It's almost like he tries to blind his opponent with a cluster of shots to set up the one or two fully turned, power shots.

Look at the faces of Kessler and Lacy. Joe stopped neither, but both were a mess after they had faced Joe. You can't black eyes, bruise faces or KD people if you can't hit hard.

Also remember, Kelly is a natural 160lb-er. Joe has been hitting stronger, heavier guys for his entire career. And much as I like Kelly, his chin is hardly one of his strengths. Zuniga had him hurt, as did Taylor, and there is NO WAY on earth either of those guys hit harder than the undisputed 168lb champ who has KO-ed 3/4s of his opponents over a ten year title reign.

No fucking way.

MTF

 

I fail to see what Southpaws Pavlik has fought that compares to Calzaghe.
However I believe Joe has beaten a better fighter in Kessler.

 

Truth.com.

I'd pick Calzaghe to stop anybody in the middleweight division. The LHW division? Not so much and that's where he should be. But Bob Arum would be making a huge mistake by pitting Pavlik against Calzaghe at this point and I'm of the opinion it doesn't happen this year. Maybe 2009 or however long it takes to build Pavlik up.

 

If your sister or mom slapped you for 36 minutes, you'd have a black eye or bruised face too. I don't know about the KD, I give you more credit than that.

 

Pavlik is the man.. he is one of the few fighters that I've seen that really can hurt you with any punch.. basically every fight he at some point at least hurts the guy.. I think he's a great puncher and he's relentless.. honestly.. if he fought Joe C right now.. I got Pavlik..

he'll stop Joe.. and I hope it happens.. for me.. if Pav figths Joe.. Boxing really goes up another level.. I mean it would be one of the all time fav moments for me to see Joe struggling to get up, and get up on wobbly legs stumbling across the ring..

I hope if it happens the ref doesn't jump in if that happens.. I don't want Joe stumbling and it stopped.. I want him stumbling and the pavlik dropping him a few more times.. just really putting a beating on him

Joe C really deserves a beating and Pav is our best shot at doing it.. for the betterment of boxing we need Joe C laid out on the cavas drooling

 

I respect your opinion, but I still disagree. If you wanna see the depth in Kessler's arsenal, look no further than the way he fucked up Andrade for 12 rounds. And Andrade is a stronger, tougher opponent than anyone Pavlik has beaten IMO.

I'm a fan of both guys, and if they fought I feel it'd be pretty much a pick em. I'd give a SLIGHT edge to Kessler though still.

I'm still mad at Kessler for night fighting Miranda though. I think Mikkel woulda beaten Miranda up BADLY!

 

I was disappointed that Kessler went the title route (although at least its happening very soon), but am glad that Miranda ended up facing abraham again, its a better fight than kessler-miranda

 

pavilk would make Kessler look like a bum

 

No way is Kessler better than Pavlik. First of all, he's not as mean. Second of all, I don't think he hits as hard. Third of all, he can't fight inside very well. Third of all, he was befuddled by Slappy's stink and I don't think Pavlik would be.

 

Double.. I couldn't agree more..

Kessler is a poor man's pavlik

 

Other way around.

 

I disagree with you. I agree with MWS, Pavlik is definately more skilled than Kessler.

Kessler has plenty of depth to his arsenal. I was surprised when he started throwing uppercuts in the 4th round against Calzaghe and hurt him a few times. That was the point in the fight where I thought he might be able to beat Calzaghe because he was adapting in there. But ultimately he couldn't.

Pavlik is a monster IMO. He's battle hardened and his attitude alone and sheer toughness are going to be big problems for any opponent. It remains to be seen if his power will travel up with him. But if it does, he has a REAL chance of beating Calzaghe.

 

dsimon writes:

Kessler is very good but he can't fight inside... Like a lot of Euros he lacks a couple of fundamental qualities. He does not have the ghetto toughness that somoene like Pavlik has and he does not know how to fight inside.

I agree with Lok and Double, Pavlik beats the stuffing out of Joe. I thought Hopkins laid the blueprint down and even if one gave that fight to Joe (acceptable) if was obvious that if Bernard had a bit more stamina Joe would have been dead meat. Pavlik is relentless and would beat on Joe every minute of every round.

Joe showed that he is vulnerable as hell when Hops took him to school. Win or lose Hops beat him... he knocked Joe down and made Joe look like a windmill punching amateur.

 

How exactly did Joe use "stink" to beat Kessler, and why do you continue to be OBSESSED with that word?

I'm damn sure no Calz fan, but Joe beat Kessler very impressively, and did so without the use of "stink".

Second of all, Calz is a very tough matchup for Pavlik, and you're a fool if you cant see that. Kelly has never faced anyone as quick, strong, or as plain good as Joe. Pavlik could beat him, but on the other hand, dont be surprised if Joe beats him easier than he did Kessler.

 

Pavlik's going to start fighting in reverse, setting traps, pot-shotting and clinching?

Isn't that the Hopkins blueprint?

And Kessler isn't an inside fighter, but he's also not flat-footed. He's actually decently fluid on his feet for his size.

It's true he doesn't have that ghetto toughness that only Youngstown, Ohio can provide. ::

 

dsimon writes:

I think what Hops provided was to show that skills can trouble Calzighe more than people thought. Pavlik has a lot of subtle things he does, skills, an instinct. I think these things will pay dividends.

Kessler is fluid but he has virtually no game inside and Pavlik can tear you up in there. Calzighe got hurt inside a few times against Hops.

Youngstown is Hell compared to Denmark. We live in a violent society, a violent country. Pavlik grew up tough enough. But yeah I know Youngstown is not exactly Caprini Green ::

I wouldn't be suprised if Joe prevailed but I think Pavlik would suprise people. I am basing this on the Hopkins fight. I have no problem with the decision but I think Hops won the fight psychologically. I.e. he hurt Joe and knocked him down and Joe did neither to him.

 

I completely disagree... Don't you remember Hopkins trying buy time or even a disqualification because of these supposed low blows? He didn't have the looks of a fighter that had the psychological upper hand at this point. And Calzaghe won more rounds, probably twice as more as Hopkins. This was far from a psychological victory for Hopkins, he lost and he knew it, his behaviour during the last few rounds showed it.

 

@ "kelly has a shot"

not a SHOT.. Pavlik would murder this bum

 

Youngstown has a pretty high crime rate.

Hopkins was the one faking how bad he was hurt from a low blow that wasn't that bad, due to fatigue.

I don't know if that's a psychological victory.