Holyfield/Tyson/Lewis/Bowe - How would you rate them...

Fine, you just better not come home with a nose ring and a mohawk. :warning:

 

you guys gotta be kidding with Lemmon in number one! I mean.. come on!!!

I honestly don't believe anyone here thinks Lemmon is the greatest..

 

Career:

1. Holyfield
2. Lewis
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

Head-to-head
1. Lewis
2. Tyson
3. Holyfield
4. Bowe

 

Head to Head:

Lewis
Bowe
Holyfield
Tyson

Lewis beat all that he faced, with moderate to no difficulty
Bowe arguably beat Holyfield three times
Holyfield beat Tyson, although it was a bit dirty
Tyson beat none that he faced, not even close


Career greatness:

Lewis
Tyson
Holyfield
Bowe

Lewis is top 10 all time for sure
Tyson has a legacy that can never be forgotten
Holyfield is a legend of the 90's
Bowe was badass but didn't captivate or have any period of sustained dominance

 

Lewis
Holyfield
Tyson
Bowe

Lewis is definitely a top ten HW of all time IMHO. He beat everyone there was for him to beat (and who was willing to fight him) and he avenged both of his defeats in decisive fashion. Bowe threw his belt in the bin to avoid getting his ass handed to him again by Lewis, Tyson paid Lewis off to stay out of his way until he had no realistic options left but to take his beating (and his huge payday) and Holy was beaten twice; the first time decisively and the second time close but clear.

Holyfield is a boxing legend, no doubt, and history will judge him very kindly IMHO. His upset wins over Tyson were incredibly impressive, even if Mike was by then faded, and he had tremendous courage and heart, as well as outstanding durability for such a small HW. I wish he'd fucking pack it all in now though...doh:

Tyson is difficult to judge, because his 'prime', as it was, lasted very briefly and to be honest he lost every fight he had with these other guys. He was still the 'baddest man on the planet' at one stage, though, and even though he was probably overrated a little at the time, he has become a little underrated now.

Bowe was shit.

MTF

 

1st of All, Riddick Bowe DOESN'T Belong N this Discussion...Him & EVERYBODY ELSE KNEW that his Chance to Carve His OWN Niche was by Facing Lennox Lewis...

Bowe Called Lennox Names, DISSED him N Interviews, but NEVER had the Cashews to Actually FIGHT Lennox & Redeem his KO Olympic Loss...REED Will REFRAIN from Questioning Bowe's Manhood, but it's APPARENT that he NEVER Wanted to Fight Lennox Lewis Again...

2nd, Mike Tyson had More of an IMPACT than ANY of the Other Listed Fighters...By Faaaaaaaaaar....N a Historical Context, Impact CAN'T B Overlooked...Dempsey & Louis R PRIME Examples...NEITHER of them Fought the Absolute BEST Guys Possible, yet they're BOTH Penciled N on Most All-Time Heavy Lists...

N Terms of ACCOMPLISHMENTS, Holyfield is 1st...He was UNDISPUTED @ 2 Weights...& his Resume is BETTER than the Rest...If we're JUST Ranking them as Heavy's, Lennox Probably Gets the Knod...

Greatness

Holy (Unless his Crusier Exploits DON'T Count)
Lennox
Tyson
Bowe


Head to Head

Tyson
Lennox
Bowe
Holy


REED::

 

Career:

1. Holy
2. Lewis
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

In terms of actual talent, and prime-for-prime who beats who:

1. Tyson
2. Lewis
3. Bowe
4. Holy

 

When you factor in this decade there's no f'n way Holyfield has had a better, or greater career than Lewis. Please.

 

Dsimon writes:

I never thought much of Bowe. But it gets interesting because if you compare a cerain way, in terms of talent and ability at the top of their game, then Bowe and Razor Ruddock and Tyson all have the characteristic of being potentially a lot stronger than their career would indicate. And Bowe did have his moments... like when he beat up the bald cuban girlyman who pissed him off.

On the extreme opposite is Holyfield, a guy who managed to be competative with Bowe and beat Tyson.... Holyfield was in fact an overachiever as compared to the first group above.

Lewis maximized his talent which was considerable. How talented was Lewis? well one could argue that only his fear made the fights with Holy even close and Lewis won those fights easily. Basically Lewis was a talented heavy weight who won his fights, usually safely, though what he did to Ruddock and Golota for example was impressive.

So the facts apply to different circumstances with these guys. What makes the order possible is how and what conditions apply to when these guys met in the ring. Other's have covered those condition thoroughly. Lewis dominated the most guys, Bowe the least. The only thing remaining to the order is special circumstances:

a) Bowe. None really, I look at Razor Ruddock and Bowe similarly.

b) Holyfield. None really. Did the most with what he had.

c) Lewis. One of the best to grace the ring. Fought all comers. A little inconsistant at times but otherwise a great heavyweight.

d) Tyson. Tyson's dominance in the division was unprecedented. Amazingly Tyson was not a big heavyweight. Tyson did not beat his opponents, he destroyed them. At his peak the rest of the division could not be competative with Tyson. Even When Douglas beat him he almost got Ko'ed doing it. Nobody could even last with Tyson, accept if they were a big heavyweight and then they could survive the fight at best.

A lot of people thought that at his best, Tyson may have been the most dominant heavyweight ever. I think it is possible. His speed, his power in both hands and his ring knowledge made him, at his best the heavyweight to beat.... period.

Here is my order accordingly:

1) Tyson
A tie
1) Lewis

2) Holyfield

3) Bowe
A tie
3) Ruddock

 

So the Fact that Holy is 97 & STILL Active DIMINISHES his Accomplishments???:dunno:

UNDISPUTED @ 2 Weights, UNDEFEATED & the G.O.A.T. @ 1 of those Weights...Multiple Time Heavyweight Champion...BETTER Resume...

REED would Most Certainly Pick Lennox OVER Holy Head to Head (8 Out of 10 Times), but N Terms of GREATNESS, Holy's Done More...



REED:hammert:

 

G.O.A.T by default at cruiser. Holyfield is easily the least accomplished "GOAT" at any weight, ever.

He was heavyweight champion twice, just like Lewis.

And he has been pissing on his legacy for 10 years.

Holy at cruiser probably shouldn't be a part of this debate, but I guess when you factor that in he's pretty close with Lewis.

 

dsimon writes:

The thing is that people forget so fast. It amazes me. Ali was the last heavyweight as dominant when he was on top as Tyson. Lewis was a legitimate great but was never as dominant. AS a matter of fact relationship wise Ali: Holmes is in many ways analogous to Tyson: Lewis.

History is such that now people are saying that Holmes is as good as Ali... and that is true! But socially Ali and Tyson were dominant in a way that few heavyweights were. And n both instances Homes and Lewis, the proverbial father was killed (Freudian analogy).... Tyson and Ali were dismantled by their protage'

My point is that people can get on this forum now and somehow diminish Tyson's impact...

To which I say: There is no way when Tyson was on top that anyone would think twice about saying he was the most unbeatable champ in history... Unlike with Lewis the older guys who had seen some of the greats were often of the opinion that Tyson was the best. If Lewis had come before Tyson I doubt anyone would have thought he would beat Mike at Mike's prime.

 

Impact and what you have actually done in the ring are two separate things, D.

As it unfolded, Lewis ended up being way more "unbeatable" than Tyson.

 

dsimon writes:

Not necessarily. We have heavyweight champions who are unbeaten, athletic prodigies, boxers and punchers. Dominance at the top is a measure of what guy when he was at his best was the best.

Lewis was not more unbeatable than Tyson, he was more consistant and a great fighter. If you took the period when they were on top and compared them most people would assume Tyson would win.

I say this as a fan of Lewis. Lewis was dominant in other ways and yes he was a great champ.

 

Tyson was become so underrated its pathetic! I hope in years to come when the heavyweight division gets more and more shitty people start to appreciate how special Tyson was.

 

Right, that's fair for sure. I wouldn't disagree that most would pick Tyson over Lewis at their respective peaks.

Looking back at their careers, however, one guy beat everyone he ever fought and it wasn't Tyson.

 

I appreciate Tyson. I re-watch my old Tyson library all the time. He was awesome.

I simply see things too clearly and without bias, I guess. ::

 

Agreed. It seems like it's rarely even given much consideration that he didn't fight for four years during what would have been near-prime years in his mid to late 20's.

I think Teddy Atlas deserves a great deal of credit for the diminishment of Tyson.

 

It's Hamburgers and Holyfield:nono:

 

I think the Douglas loss has a lot to do with that. If he was undefeated when they locked him up I think you would see way more "what ifs"

 

Bowe preferred seafood.

 

Prime for Prime who beats who?? :dunno:


I always thought that a prime Tyson would KO Lewis TFO
.....but still get pummeled by Holyfield...

so Prime vs. Prime...

Tyson beat Lewis...
Bowe beat Holy
Lewis beat Bowe
Holyfield beat Tyson...


QUESTION....when was LENNOX LEWIS prime??? The mid-late 90's...or 2000's when he beat HOLY/TYSON/GRANT/TUA..etc...




IMO the 2000's LEWIS would have a better chance at beating PRIME Holyfield/Tyson....he seem to be steadier on his feet..a bit heavy..and didn't move as much as the younger LL...

 

Lewis was so good for so long that it's hard to say... but I would say he peaked around 1997 or 98.

 

Holyfield, who slugged it out with Foreman, went to war Cooper (in which he was knocked down), and beaten in a slugfest by Bowe (in which he was knocked down), would have pummeled a prime Tyson?

I think Holyfield, pre-Steward during his first heavyweight championship run, would've been over-powered and knocked out by Tyson.

 

Yeah, he came in A LOT lighter back then too. If memory serves, he came in at 205 for the first Bowe fight. By the time he fought Tyson he was closer to 220.

Holyfield was too tough for his own good at the beginning of his heavyweight reign and he benefited from beating an easy champion and a pretty sub-par group of contenders before losing to Bowe.

 

Yeah. I think it's under-estimated how much he changed after that first Bowe defeat, when he brought in Manny Steward and bulked up for the Stewart and Bowe rematches.

Holyfield actually started using some of the same tactics Lewis and Klitschko are criticised for. ::

 

Holyfield's game plan for the first Tyson fight was not legal, that's for sure. ::

But I agree with you 100%. I've always had a ton of respect for the way he handled the Bowe rematch. That was his only fight with Steward, right?

Until Lewis lost to Rahman, Manny had an AMAZING track record in heavyweight title fights. He was also on the winning side of both McCall/Lewis fights.

 

The Bowe fight and the Alex Stewart rematch.

Atlas ended getting most of the credit for Michael Moorer but I sorta consider him more of Steward's heavyweight champion as well.::

 

By "Default"???:dunno:

Guys like Carlos DeLeon, Al Cole & Vassily Jirov had LENGTHY Reigns @ Crusier...Is Calzaghe @ Supermiddle Any More of an Accomplished GOAT than Holy @ Crusier???...:dunno:...BETTER Fighters than Calzaghe Campaigned @ 168 (Roy, Toney, Leonard, Hearns), yet he Gets GOAT Status Based on his LONGEVITY...

MOST Great Fighters Piss on their Legacies, So to Speak, but it's NOT Held Against Them...Ali LOST 3 of his Last 4 Fights, yet NOBODY Cares...Sugar Ray Robinson & Joe Louis Went Out N LESS than Stellar Fashion...Ray Leonard was DESTROYED by Hector Camacho of All People...

REED Doesn't Think Holy's (Or Any Other Fighters) Past Prime Exploits Should B Held AGAINST him...

Sure, it SUCKS that he's Still STUBBORN Enough to Think he's Relevant, but that has NO Bearing on what he's ALREADY Accomplished...

REED:hammert:

 

Hmm, don't remember that. To be honest with you, along with the Oquendo fight, I think Holyfield/Stewart II is the only Holyfield fight I haven't seen. I have his entire career somewhere in my closet, is it worth a watch?