is calzaghe one of the best fighters ever

in all seriousness in terms of being unbeatable.

especially when you look at what fighters like hopkins and kessler can do, but not against calzaghe.

i know most don't like him right, i think he's a bit of an arrogant prick, but how do you assess him without bias?

feel free not to answer this thread also.

 

Great fighter. Best 168 pounder ever...which isnt saying a great deal, but as the division grows, maybe it will.

Probably one of the hundred or so best of all-time.

 

He is undeniably one of the best ever. Calzaghe deserves to be up there with the likes of Hagler, Monzon, Spinks etc.

 

i agree with both of you, another thing to take into account is there isn't one thing that calzaghe hasn't shown he can do.

talking about 168, i doubt there'll ever be fighter as good in that division, they would have to do a hell of a lot to topple him.

 

I think he is better than one of the 100 best fighters to be honest, and as Frank alluded to, one thing that does have to be taken into account, is Calzaghe ISN'T the most likeable chap. He is charmless, annoying, cancels fights, and he's just a bit, well, Welsh.

But he is an incredible fighter, and his last couple of fights have really solidified that.

He looks like a slapping amateur at times, but somehow he is incredibly hard to beat.

 

Top 50, IMO.

 

his style is sometimes ridiculous, almost embarrassing in a vitali kind of way. and that fucker is awkwardly hard to beat also.

i'd imagine calzaghe would be the worst person to have banter with, he's probably take you seriously and then lay you out.

 

For all his talents and undefeated record, his has very few names on that resume. One, maybe two HOF'ers. Thats just not good enough for a guy who fought in an era where HOF'ers were in and around his division for years.

Regardless of what is made of it now, not fighting Ottke hurts. Not fighting another champion until the Lacy fight (what a decade?) is unforgiveable as far as Im concerned.

Great fighters do the things to prove it. Calzaghe is making things right now...but he can't make up for the time he lost.

 

He's a horrible, horrible horrible bloke, but he is one of the best- better than top 100, IMHO. Top 50-60 maybe? :dunno:

He's developed a style which makes him almost impossible to beat- he throws clusters of slappy shots mixed in with the odd, set punch before moving the hell out of the way. Despite the fact that he always seems to outwork and overwhelm opponents, he's essentially a counter puncher in that he likes fighter's to come to him so he can make them miss, flurry and shift out of range. His opponents usually end up utterly confuddled.

Moreover, he's tough as teak, mentally resiliant and arguably the most adaptable fighter active today- he found a way to beat elite guys like Kessler and Hopkins when Plan A didn't work in a way that other elite guys, like Pavlik, can't do.

Asides from Lennox Lewis, he's the best British fighter to ever lace 'em up IMHO.

MTF

 

i'd rate him higher than lewis to be honest.

 

These are the major criticisms that can be legitimately raised, but...

...Despite what has been said since, Ottke never came within a million miles of Calzaghe either: in fact, Ottke has an even worse record of fighting hometown scrubs than Calzaghe has (save maybe Mundine and Johnson).

He should have fought Johnson, and only he will know if he was legitimately injured all those times or not, but Hopkins priced himself out after terms had been agreed years ago.

The only fighter Joe can conclusively be proven to have ducked is Jones Jr (he said as such himself in 2003), which is NOT rectified by fighting the shell of Jones Jr next month, btw.

He wasted a decade, no doubt, but he's legitimately undefeated after Christ knows how many years, and he has Eubanks (admittedly shot), Lacy, Kessler, Hopkins and shortly Jone Jr on his resume. Not great, but much improved since 2005 and better than many expected him to have.

MTF

 

how do you think he would have faired against fighters like ottke?>

 

I was having this debate with a few guys yesterday, funnily enough, and they agreed with you.

I don't- Lennox went to the US and fought anyone and everyone willing to fight him over something like ten years: other champions, contenders, mooks and all.

Joe didn't...that's what sets the two apart in my eyes.

MTF

 

eubank was most definitely less shot than people like to make out. look at what he did with thompson at cruiser after those fights.

plus the knockdown in the first was extremely impressive considering eubanks chin.

you've also got to bear in mind that steve collins admitted retiring instead of having to face calzaghe.

 

I think he beats Ottke rather easily. But I also thought Pavlik would beat Hopkins down over the course of 12 as well.

They do the fighting and leave the talking to you and I for a reason.

 

but at the same time going record for record lewis's best names where both two shot fighters. tyson shockingly so.

plus i can't get past lewis losing to vitali (pretty much, i think lewis was gonna get stopped through probably pre tiredness) and getting out of there, and the knockout losses, i know he avenged them, but h was still clean clocked and never proved the toughness calzaghe has, maybe the mercer fight, maybe.

 

Im sorry, but Bernard Hopkins could not "price himself out" of a fight with Calzaghe. Hopkins was the guy on top, not Calzaghe. If Joe wanted it, his camp could have had it. They could afford to bring Tyson to the UK a few times and set Joe up with 20 defences against cans. It could have happened if he had wanted it.

Hell, I remember his original excuse for not travelling to the states to fight Jones or Hopkins "Im scared of flying". ::

 

Eubanks was shot to pieces...what he did with Thompson was more a reflection on his skills compared to Thompson's, even at that late, late stage of his career.

Agreed on the KD, though: Eubanks was a granite chinned mother fucker, no doubt.

Collins retired though because he wanted to fight Jones Jr, and when Calzaghe was brought in instead, he wrapped it all in. I have serious doubts that Collins retired because he was scared of Joe- that's not collins style at all

MTF

 

did he say that? .

 

You know as well as I do that Hopkins agreed a contract to fight Joe in 2003 and then, out of nowhere, he asked for double the money he had just agreed and the plug was pulled.

I'm not defending Joe in respect of Jones- on that it can be reasonably proven. But Hopkins pulled the Calzaghe fight in 2003. Very little doubt about that

MTF

 

maybe so, collins was a tough motherfucker too. he did however recently say that joe would have beaten him, i think it was probably one of those high risk low reward situations, and he probably thought at the back of his mind that calzaghe was too young and too good.

 

I also remember a whole host of other things that have went unsaid, regarding that proposed fight.

 

I recently read that Collins maintains that Calzaghe ducked HIM.

Collins is a worthless shite.

 

Yes, BUT, it can be pretty easily proven that Tyson, the other elite HW of the era, did absolutely everything he possibly could to avoid fighting Lennox until he was so old and shot that he had no other choice. He paid Lennox six million big ones to step aside, so far as I remember, so he could get after (what he thought was) a shot version of Holfield.

That is a reflection on Tyson, not Lennox.

Similarly, Riddick Bowe threw his belt in the bin tio avoid Lennox: live on TV no less.

That is a reflection on Bowe, not Lennox.

The stoppages were bad, but he avenged both and you have to take into account two factors:

1. HW's get KO-ed more often, even the elite guys. At that weight, one lucky punch can make all.

2. Lennox fought a higher level of comp much more consistantly than Joe has, and throughout showed a willingness to fight whoever, wherever.

Joe hasn't

MTF

 

I read that too... ::

For all that, though, and despite the fact that he feasted on a few leftovers to build whatever name he evetually made, it seems highly unlikely that, having fought Benn, Eubanks and McCallum that he would retire to avoid Joe Calzaghe (at the time a kid and a relative unknown).

I'm not buying that one, Who

MTF

 

joe is still the better fighter, as a heavyweight lennox had hugh advantages in size and strength that calzaghe doesn't over his opponents. it's pure skill and adaptability that wins calzaghe fights.

plus he has that real fighting spirit in him, lennox fought scared a lot of times, you can't say that about joe, plus the way he beat mitchell is massively overlooked in terms of heart and toughness considering joe was almost dead on his feet when he stood up.

 

Calzaghe is legimitately undefeated. Lewis has lost by KO to fairly average heavyweights.

I have no doubt Calzaghe is a better fighter, and harder to beat.

Lewis has a good resume, but he is not the best British fighter ever, Calzaghe is, even if he is Welsh.

 

I'm not saying Joe isn't tough- he is. As tough as teak in fact. arguably the most single minded fighter in the sport today...

But this myth that Lennox 'fought scared' needs again to be addressed. People seem to be under some misconception that fighting SENSIBLY, using you own STRENGTHS against your opponents WEAKNESSES is a sign of fear. Bullshit; it's a sign of common sense and a clear-thinking fighting brain. Why on earth would someone who has already been KO'd before engage in a needless war with someone in the ring that they know they can beat without having to do so?

To be honest, though, this debate is largely moot, IMHO. There is a cigarette paper between the pair in terms of where they rate anyway, and so long as they are 1 and 2 in any UK list, I'd accept it.

MTF

 

::

However, you and Who are wrong, Mex, for all the reasons stated previously...

MTF

 

indeed.