What was Roy's best win?

I searched "Toney W12 Ruiz"...still no result. Maybe it never happened?

 

Ruiz.

 

At the time that Jones beat Toney, Toney was a two division champion and considered one of the very best fighters in the world...pretty much how Calzaghe is regarded now. And what makes that win stand out is that Jones toyed with Toney.

And, frankly, I don't know that Calzaghe is a better fighter at 168 than Toney was when he lost to Jones. Sure...Calzaghe has the glossy record at 168, but Toney took on Jones in Jones' prime and Calzaghe has waited until Jones was violently KOed twice and has generally looked to be a shell of his previous self. When you take more chances against good opposition, you run the chance of losing along the way. Calzaghe has been very careful about choosing opposition and minimizing his chances of losing. it is telling that NOW he is willing to take on the likes of Hopkins and Jones when both are ill-equipped to beat him at this stage of their careers.

If Jones beats Calzaghe now, it would be an upset and would be a bigger win due to Jones' decline over the past few years...not because Calzaghe now is a better fighter than Toney was when he fought Jones.

 

Bottom line, Hopkins is by far the greatest fighter Jones beat, and he beat him at his prime weight. The fact it was a boring fight is really neither here nor there.

 

Calzaghe is a better fighter than Toney ever was. Jones beating Calz would be a bigger win because of Jones' (supposed) decline and because Calzaghe is better than Toney.

 

Yes but that's a win that looks great in retrospect but it wasn't a big deal at the time.

I don't buy into the whole "Hopkins was green" garbage but it doesn't change the fact that at the time it was only significant because Jones won a world title.

James Toney was considered no worse than the P4P #2 best fighter in the world and Roy was an underdog moving up in weight in that one.

It was not only more significant at the time, but his performance was much more dominating then his win against Hopkins.

 

disagREED. I'm not convinced Calzaghe is better than Toney @ 168. Toney was a very good fighter at 168 and a much better fighter than anyone Calzaghe has ever faced at that weight. And again, at the time of the Jones-Toney fight, Toney was considered to be one of the best, if not THE best, fighters in the world.

And as for your Jones' "supposed" decline comment...it strikes me that anyone with eyes can see Jones isn't the same fighter he was in his heyday.

After Jones' KO losses to Tarver and Johnson, his weak performance in the Taver rubber match and his so-so peformances since then...it's pretty clear that Jones (and I am NO fan of his) is significantly past his best days. Anyone suggesting otherwise must be eiither a rabid Jones fan or a Calzaghe fan who wants to give more credit for a win over Jones than it really deserves.

A Jones win in this fight would be significant because of his own reduced status compared to Calzaghe's current status as one of the best fighters in the world.

 

agREED. Hopkins is the long term greater fighter, but Jones beating Toney is a bigger accomplishment based on when the fights actually happened. Hopkins was a relatively untested contender when Jones faced him, Toney was one of the best fighters in the world and a two division champ that Jones was moving up to face. And when you add in that Jones won with ease, it is clearly his most significant win to date.

 

But who did Toney beat at 168 that was anywhere near as good as Calzaghe? You keep giving Toney credit for taking on Roy when both were in their respective primes... but Toney lost nearly every round in that fight, and quite frankly became irrelevant soon thereafter, in fact until he finally picked up the pieces years later at cruiserweight.

Joe's toughest fights at 168 (on paper) resulted in Joe winning 20 out of 24 rounds. Kessler today is far better than any fighter was at the time Toney beat them at 168, and I'd give Lacy a chance against most of that same crop as well.

And as far as head-to-head, there's nothing that says Calzaghe couldn't beat that version of Toney.

 

How badly do you think that 168 Toney would have beaten Kessler and Lacy?

 

I don't see him being any more dominant against either than Calzaghe was, if that's what you're asking. The Lacy fight would've probably been a mismatch (though entertaining). He probably beats Kessler, but not by much (7-5, 8-4ish).

Now ask me how I believe Calzaghe would've fared against Iran Barkley and... I don't know, Charles Williams? Tim Littles? What would be Toney's 2nd best win at 168?

 

What Jake said.

I think Kessler would beat anyone Toney had beaten to that point and I would pick him over Toney, too. Toney was overrated. HBO was in full force back then. Yeah, Toney was good, but way too many close calls to be considered #1 p4p or close to it. He got that ranking by beating loss-machine Iran Barkley, too. I really liked his Littles win and the Prince win, but Kessler has done all of that and more. Calz has done all of that and a lot more.

 

The strength of Toney's resume was at middleweight, which is why he was the number one P4P fighter at the time. He was supposed to dominate super middle but Roy dominated him.

 

No shit. But how does this strengthen that side of the argument and disprove what mikE and I are trying to point out?

 

I never said that Toney defintiely would beat or was better than Calzaghe, what I said is that I'm not convinced that Calzaghe is the better fighter. As far as I am concerned, a fight between the Calzaghe and Toney in their primes is a toss up. What I was doing was objecting to the notion that Calzaghe was clearly a better fighter than Toney, which I don't agree with.

What I think some folks are doing is confusing "greater" with "better". Calzaghe gets the nod as the greater fighter at 168 due to his lengthy reign (and not having to fight a prime Roy Jones), but that doesn't automatically mean that Calzaghe would be better fighter if the two met in their primes.

How do you think Toney would do against Calzaghe's opposition at 168? I don't see any of them knocking off Toney. Kessler would probably be the most difficult, but I see Toney winning something like 8 to 4.

 

Historically, I'd have to argue that Calzaghe is a better fighter than Toney as well. "Clearly" is an exaggeration, sure. But intangibles factored in, I'm not sure how Toney comes out ahead.

Not everything boils down to who wins when both are at their absolute best. Save that for Mythical Matchups.

Toney's lazy approach to training, and often to fighting hard for three minutes at a time, is a very big part of who he was and continues to be, just as fragile hands are a part of who Calzaghe was and what he's had to overcome.

I already answered that question, but if you missed it, look up a few posts.

And since nobody dares ask the question I posed for Toney supporters to raise - there isn't a single win for Toney at 168 that Joe couldn't match or outdo. The only argument against Joe is that he loses to the '94 version of Roy (or perhaps any 90's version of Roy)... but if that's the case, then it should also count AGAINST Toney, no?

 

It definitely counts against Toney as well. But to me, taking on Jones and losing (even in one-sided fashion) counts a bit more than avoiding Jones and waiting until his slip started to dramatically show before taking him on.

On the other hand, I don't think anyone knew how good Jones really was until the night he fought Toney. Now it's possible if Toney had any idea of what he was in for, he might have thought twice about it...but I don't think so since Toney has seemed pretty fearless throughout his career when choosing opposition.

 

I don't know.

 

"Jones fought a green Ruiz, but Toney fought a prime Ruiz" - Roll with the Punches :atu:

 

You should have that printed on a t-shirt.

 

I'll just borrow yours.

 

It won't fit.

 

I'll use it as a bib.

 

While I think Toney is a better fighter than Joe, it's fairly obvious that historically Joe has had a better career than Toney.

If Toney would have shown up in shape during his prime years, there wouldn't be much argument as to who was the better fighter.

Toney obviously had the skillset to beat Joe if they fought at thier respective best; however. Toney's lack of discipline gives Joe the benefit of the doubt.

 

::

 

They did not have any rules in the state against it, so no action was taken.

 

Why would they test for it then?

 

Yeah, there would be.
Joe would still be undefeated and James would still have losses during his prime.

 

Maybe it is user error
It is there, search "Toney Ruiz" dunce :kick:
I KNOW you are smarter than this, quit playing the part.

 

Oh, all that turns up is something about a No Contest because Toney is a useless fucking cheater and had that fight removed from the books because of it.