Let's first make it perfectly clear that I have nothing against Frazier, he was a great champ. Also in my opinion quitting in a fight is not nearly as bad things as it seems to be to most so there is no that kind of motivation. I thought about this by just watching the film. In the video it seems to me that Frazier is the one who does not want to let the fight go on. Futch is talking to him, he mumbles "no" (this could be that Futch suggests stopping the fight). Yet after that they try to give him smelling salt, again Joe says no, they try to put the mouthpiece in, Joe doesn't take it and says no and not in angry manner but like a man who can't go on anymore. Now I know that both Futch and Joe himself insist it was Eddie who made the decision but by looking at the film I am not so sure. They might have a reason to lie. What do you think, is it possible that Frazier quit (before answering please rewatch the video) and if he did, does that change his reputation anyway?
No, Frazier did not quit as he never quit a fight in his life. I saw the fight live in Houston on closed circuit on the big screens at the Summit and Futch was telling him he was stopping the fight and Joe shook his head and told him no. I still think Futch made a mistake in stopping the fight as Ali was completely spent as well, perhaps more than Joe, he just wasn't swollen up as bad and couldn't get off of his stool without assistance. Padilla said he would have let the fight continue as well, and the great Futch made a mistake that night/early morning in Manila.
Have you seen a video where there is a microphone in the corner? Since I don't know if such even exists and thus we can't be sure what was said in there. Judging the moves of the cornermen it appears that they are willing to get Frazier ready for the next round
I haven't really watched the between rounds closely enough to know. One thing for sure is that even if it was Frazier that called it off Futch, would still have claimed it was his decision. It's pretty common for the cornermen to claim it was their decision in these situations. Even when there is mic in the corner and you hear the fighter basically say 'no mas' they try to spin doctor it afterward.
Back then the networks didn't have microphones in the corner, as it wa up to the color man (in that case Don Dunphy) to describe the action between rounds. Both George Benton and Milt Bailey wanted Joe to continue, but Eddie was in charge and he stopped it despite Frazier's protestations. Benton said that if he were in charge he would have had Joe stand up and start shadowboxing with "vim and vigor" and when Ali saw that he may have quit. Whether Joe could have done that we'll never know as he was so exhausted, but Ali was in as just bad shape physically as he couldn't stand without assistance immediately after the fight was stopped.
I don't think he could have either, but that certainly would made Ali question how it was possible. :: There has been a lot of wars over the years where the winner took the worst out of it in the aftermath. Ali-Frazier 3 was one of those fights that pretty much finished off both guys.
I more or less agree, in hindsight. Ali told his corner after round 14 to cut off the gloves as he wasn't going to go out again. His corner ignored him. Ali has also said "Frazier quit just before I did". But Ali was absolutely using the basically blind Frazier as target practice toward the end of both rounds 13 and 14. It's not as it Futch could know what was going on simultaneously in the other corner. He was just focusing on his fighter who was getting the shit beaten out of him.
I always thought that Joe was protesting the stoppage. I can't imagine Joe deciding not to go out with 1 to go, knowing his feelings towards Ali, & the heart of the man. I've also heard (fuelled probably by Ali's "he quit B4 I did" comment) that Ali would have not come out anyway-I find that even harder to swallow for the same reasons.
dsimon writes: Back in those days the corner men were really sly foxes!!! Dundee had some similar stuff he pulled for Ali like the tape magically tearing when Ali needed a rest against (Cooper?) I think it was? :: Now a days we have Mcgirt saying "drink some water" or Roach saying "come on son" ::
It was the first Henry Cooper fight, but I think it only added a few extra seconds. Lowe- "double the jab"....."throw the double jab"......"double jab"....."damn it, double up the jab" J. Mosley- "What round is it?"
Those golden years American heavyweights endlessly stumbled over one another trying to quit didnt they?..:crafty:
Sorry, that was a brutal long punishment. The man "quit" technically, fighters and their trainers have a means of communicating this to each other. You guys expecting him to scream no over and over like Sapp? You guys are pathetic in thinking people are superhuman and can't break.
xactly, Joe was nodding, but he was spent. He took too much punishment, and he knew he didn't had it in him to win the fight by KO. There's no superman among us...
Rarely, do I think it is justified to criticize a fighter for "quitting." I was at the Rahman/Toney 2 fight and Rahmanshould be banned for quitting but most fighters take a good beating before quitting. I don't even think Sam Peter should get shit for his recent Quit job. I mean, his effort should be criticized but not his decision to stop. He got shitkicked.
It wasn't the greatest fight I ever saw, but it was the most brutal, no doubt in my mind. I thought Joe had a good shot to win it as someone in the Ali camp I knew (and still know today) told me that Ali wasn't training hard for the fight, and basically was treating the trip to the P.I. like it was going to be a vacation. I knew that Joe had to be training as if it was going to be his last fight. Ali at that time had grown just too big physically for Joe, and too strong as well it ultimately turned out, and he took horrific body punches that would have killed most men, and most fighters as well. I think Ali in that fight and Rocky Marciano in the first Walcott fight took the most punishment in heavyweight title fights and still came out on top, and Ali said that that was it for him, but we all know how long that reirement lasted.
As I said in the first lines of the thread, I do not criticize fighters for quitting. Bad training or lack of trying yes but not quitting as such. When a fighter quits he simply admits he has lost, no shame there it is a sport after all. It is worse to try to cheat your way into a win (like Hops against Calz:stir:)
