David Haye---Legitimate shot or not?

Mitchell - HOW do you see Haye beating Vitali exactly? Knocking him out? Outboxing him? Outworking him?

 

I didn't know I made a prediction, either way, on the fight.

 

You didn't. And I am sure you're picking Vitali, it's the sensible and obvious choice.

However, you say you give Haye a bigger chance against Vitali than Wlad.

So how do you see this chance playing out? KO? Outhustling? Outboxing?

 

After what the PacMan did to DLH, anything is possible. Time is not on Vitali's side. He's injury prone and cut prone. And I don't think he takes body shots too well.

 

He 'takes' them fine,... but just like everyone else, they do effect his workrate.

 

I think he'll "stay" in the fight longer against Vitali. I think his speed will be more of a factor against him, that he'll be able to buy more time, pick his opportunities better. He's not a consistently busy fighter...but neither is Vitali, at this stage/age...not like his brother.

I see Haye having no real answers for Wlad's left hand, probably from the first round on.

 

Vitali is not some unbeatable monster. The guy has won the tittles two times and defended it once.

Haye is pretty fast for a big dude. His chin is the only thing I question.

I can see Hay outworking Vitali who is a robot and injury prone.

I have to say though I am impressed that Vitali hasn't gotten injured in this latest comeback.

 

I agree Vitaly is not a monster....you musta missed me making the point a few threads/weeks back that the Klits esp. Vitaly is not an unbeatable Heavy...

Some here like Ugo and others said the Klits would beat any heavy in history for the exception of ALI and LL...:notallthere::notallthere: Holy,Tyson,Foreman,Liston,Holmes,Frazier and a few others would bash the Klits..


ANYWAY HAYE has the speed...but his movement and footwork are average...and his chin was questionable at Cruiser..and Heavy IT MUST be garbage...we don't know yet..but Vitaly is not the guy you want to check that out with...

 

I have seen him fight

he has good power but i don't think he has a solid enough chin to hang in there with the big punchers

 

Once more you chip in with worthless little snippets which contribute absolutely nothing to any debate...

Haye is unlikely to be able to hurt Vitali; Lennox hit him flush and often and couldn't put him down and even the most ardent Haye fan would happily concede that even if David carries his power to HW he is unlikely to hit anywhere near as hard as Lennox did.

That isn't to suggest that Vitali is an impregnible beast; he isn't. It's just that Haye will give up a power, height and reach advantage to a guy he most likely will need to hit often to hurt.

Wlad, on the other hand, would have less of a height and rach advantage and the pair might be equal in terms of speed. Wlad hits harder than his brother, but that doesn't matter much because they both hit hard enough to tap Haye's major weakness; his chin. BUT Wlad does not necessarily have to be hit hard and often to be hurt- Haye MIGHT have enough single shot power to land the one punch he needs to change the fight.

Wlad knows this, Vitali knows this and Haye knows this- that's why Haye went after Wlad from the start and why Wlad, who traded smacktalk all through the last six months about beating Haye has suddenly stepped aside and allowed his bigger and less chinny brother step in.

Haye might survive longer against Vitali, but he has a better chance of beating Wlad.

MTF

 

No, really, if you consider David Haye the firing line, congrats...you can obviously see the sailboat in the picture that I can't.

In regard to the Lewis fight, yeah, that fight will be about six years old by the time Vitali fights Haye. Vitali was in his prime, Lewis was near the end of his career, at a career-high weight...and as a result, the two basically stood in front of each other, throwing a bunch of punches the other could see coming.

If Haye weighs as much as Lewis did and fights Vitali the way Lewis did, he's an idiot.

Vitali doesn't estabilsh distance the way his brother can with the jab, he can't throw it consistently minute to minute, round to round.

Vitali won't go finding Haye the way Wlad would, and make Haye walk through the same beating Brewster had to, to win.

Wlad's not wasting energy the way he used to, so if Haye's banking on Wlad's stamina to knock him out, he'll have to take plenty of punches in order to do it.

 

That's what I meant to say.

 

Lennox was completely out of shape and many of his punches were slow and looping, Vitali saw them coming a mile away and braced for them. The few that got through opened up the gashes on Vitali's face. The 6th round uppercut blew a hole through the bottom of Vitali's top lip, not to mention 2 massive cuts on the eyelid and on the eyebrow.
I don't believe in the theory that just because Vitali took Lewis' punches, he'll take Haye's. Different fighter, different punches, coming from different angles. And the Lewis fight was more than 5 years ago.
Hell even Chris Byrd backed up Vitali with a body shot. What does that mean, that Byrd hits harder than Lewis? :laughing:::
Ruiz hurt Holyfield more than Tyson and Lewis did. Does Ruiz hit harder than Tyson and Lewis now? ::

 

Haye is unlikely to find either of them due to his height and reach disadvantage, BUT Vitali won't have to throw a ton of jabs to dsiturb Haye because, despite what he likes to tell everyone, he's not a very busy or aggressive fighter. After the Thompson fight, he stopped trying to bomb people out immediately and instead throws about ten-fifteen punches per round to conserve his shitty stamina. Vitali's height and reach will be enough to disturb Haye with a few jabs to compliment them. Even if Haye does manage to get to Vitali, it won't have the same single shot effect it might have with Wlad- old, inactive or whatever, Vitali still has a better chin than his brother, and Haye's best chance against either is to KO them with a single shot because his chin is not good enough to win a prolonged fight

Also, Wlad will simply set Haye off with jabs; he doesn't go looking for anyone anymore because he's too concerned about being KTFO again. Wlad doesn't administer 'beatings' to anyone anymore...not in the normal sense of the word. He does enough to win and risks almost nothing; Wlad is an entirely different fighter to that which fought Brewster. But he still has a vulnerable chin, and against a guy who only has one realistic gameplan and one realistic hope of winning (a single shot fight changer), the rest doesn't really matter IMHO

MTF :dunno:

 

Even though he had a face covered in vaginas, Vitali didn't fall over. And no angles, techniques, ages, styles or whatever else will convince me that Haye can hit harder than Lennox.

And Haye throws about one body shot per fight, if that...

MTF

 

I've sorta said that, already...but I think it helps Haye a fight against Vitali.

Wlad's jab is consistent, and Haye isn't exactly as difficult a target to hit as even someone like Calvin Brock. Wlad will throw the jab becasue that's his best offense, his best defense...and because he doesn't have enough variation not to throw it. He may be robotic, but he's programmed to throw his jab, repeatedly.

 

How about Ray Mercer back in 1996 who took everything Lewis could throw and just kept coming? Whenever Lewis landed a punch, something new opened up on Vitali's face. Haye needs to try and bleed Vitali. JUST BLEED!!!

 

dsimon writes:

MTF and Mitchell both make some great points. I think both perspectives make a lot of sense, yes Vlad's jab is a hell of a weapon and Haye's answer is to get there first with a big punch before Vlad gets going (imo).

Yes Vitali is more consistant, has a better chin and perhaps more variety, though I debate this point and actually think he uses his jab quite a bit aw well...

I guess some of us just believe that Hayes strategy was more simple against the more talented and more inconsistant Vlad... get em early with everything! Vlad tires as the fight wears on also because of his size but when he gets the jab going this is hard to take advantage of.

The debate about Lewis is a toss up: both you guys make good points frankly. The fight was a while ago and yes if Vitali can take Lewis bombs how can he take them from Haye? Here is the thing though:

Haye is a DIFFERENT kind of puncher... now this is the kind of thing that comes back to haunt one, to bite them on the ass and to become a sig::. But Haye is a puncher like McCall and Tyson perhaps...Or even Sanders. He relies on speed for his power. Lewis is heavy handed and has weight behind his shots. This might affect Vitali diffrently its hard to tell.

 

It will be great for the division and create more interest and a lot more money, particularly overseas.

I don't know though, Haye is confident and will fight without fear vs. Vitali, but that may prove to be his undoing if he goes for the knockout early as Vitali will be at his best then.

If a big heavyweight bomber like Corrie Sanders can hit the guy flush (remember when Vitali's head looked like Aaron Pryor's in the first Arguello fight?) and not put him on the floor, I doubt David can.

 

This was exactly Haye's strategy brother Dsimon; but despite the bits and bobs being offered elsewhere, this is clearly LESS likely to work against Vitali than against Wlad.

(Merry Christmas to you and to all :bears:)

MTF

 

This is what counts, and I'll say this for the TRILLIONTH time; even if, as expected, Haye gets battered, look at us talking about a HW fight and drawing up sides and actually giving a fuck.

My oh my, how long has it been since this?

MTF :dunno:

 

dsimon writes:

Indeed. I guess Haye has to be a young dog and learn some tricks. I think Byrd who I always liked could teach him a few tricks.

 

Nah. Haye is a puncher and has the mentality/style of a puncher. That's his strength. Byrd was a slickster/cutey/non puncher.

Teaching haye a non puncher's style would be to his detriment.

It would be like Pernell Whitaker coaching Pavlik, it just wouldn't work.

 

dsimon writes:

Ahh and this my dear compadres Stinger MF Mitchell, etc is where history is made. Think for a moment when a brash young Cassius Clay dared to challenge Sonny Liston. The thing was Liston beat Patterson who was not at the time considered a very strong fighter... in a word the division was shit and here was this Negro who dared be a mean spirited thug who held sway.... Liston was a scary character indeed and like Tyson he usually won his fights before the first punch was thrown.

At the time Clay was considered a one trick poney at best, a talent who was inexperienced and a sacrifial lamb to be fed to Sonny. In truth he was a little younger but not considered much stronger than Haye.

So the groundwork is laid if Haye has the means motives and opportunity to take destiny by her balls ::. Liston was probably, all things considered, more formidable per time and place than Vitalie... as a matter of fact many might call Vitali weak if Haye wins this fight.. somthing I do not agree with.

Things like this happen and like MTF and Karl have said a lot could change the division quickly if Haye can make things happen.