I am with Jaws on Pryor being vastly overrated, which he is, I mean we go to mythical matchups and it seems he can never be beatin...which is total bullshit. But I don't disrespect him or discredit him, although his resume isn't the greatest, he still had great skills a very good chin, tough as nails and good power, great stamina... They guy had it all. And by the way anyone can be KD'd in the early rounds even if you have a hell of a chin, but to get back up and take the same shots or worse and not even budge, tells ya you got some good whiskers, something Pryor always did.
I don't mean to discredit him, its people talking like he's some christ-figure that is getting this reaction out of me. Pryor is fucking awesome to watch, just like Pacquiao is for me, and Tszyu, and other members of my favorites club. But he's not invincible, he has a mediocre resume, and is not someone with a good chin. Great fighter, but not unbeatable or some god-figure.
Wow, thats a pretty simple minded and stupid outlook on thngs. First off you cant compare a time when the biggest fighters were 215 pounds with a time when the smallest heavyweights are 230, so right away that is a misleading and stupid comparison that until now I would have thought you were too bright to make Secondly, the "pretty solid LHW" named Ezzard Charles was one of the best fighters of all time and despite never getting a "title" shot, dominated probably the deepest Light Heavyweight division in history (only the late 70s era of Spinks, Muhammad, Saad, Johnson, Lopez, Qawi, etc. is near that level) ... Ezzard Charles is probably the best all time 175 pounder AND for that time period (again talking about the size differences between then and now) he was a very good heavyweight as well... and also Joe Louis was a shot fighter by that point in his career, so bring up his loss to Charles is a moot point Thirdly, He knocked Baer out in the fight in which he was dropped (bum or not, Buddy Baer had one thing in common with brother Max-- he could punch REAL hard) and he absolutley annihlated him in a single round in the rematch... mixed among the "bums" were good heavies like Max Schmeling, Abe Simon, Jersey Joe Walcott, Bob Pastor, Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, Tommy Farr and Arturo Godoy as well as a pair of great Light Heavies in John Henry Lewis and Billy Conn... Louis certainly didn't duck anyone and he cleaned the division out Finally, a word about the skills of the man himself: Louis boasted a wonderful offense, a brutal jab, tremendous straight right, one of the best left hooks in the division's history and was a hurtful bodypuncher... he threw terrific combinations and was also a capable counterpuncher. As for his chin, he was prone to the early fight knockdown, but always got up and went to work, usually ending the fight with a KO. His feet weren't the swiftest on the block, but that didnt stop him from massacring one fighter after another over the longest undisputed reign in boxing history. He dserves a great deal more respect than to be dismissed as an "oldy but a duddy" by a kid who was born after he died
you weren't alive when he fought either? Neither were 95% of the people who get outraged when I call him a limited fighter. I love people who go to the age card, especially when they aren't far off. You know who can play the age card, John Garfield, but he would never do that, because only people who have no leg to stand on take cheap shots like that... Buddy Bear fucking sucks. He can punch, like Butterbean can punch, except Butterbean would crucify Bear. Those guys you listed were not good fighters. Amazing that of the people who floored Joe Louis, they mostly have one thing in common, they're bigger than he was. Nevermind that they suck out loud, they were similar sized, and had him hurt/down in multiple cases. Ezzard charles is a great fighter, I will never dispute that. He's one of those rare oldie time fighters who could be LHW champion today, something i can't say for Louis or many other old champs. Lastly, your first point is moot. Buddy Bear, Abe Simon, Tony Galento, etc. were all the size of today's HWs. Ironically those guys, who have NO skill whatsoever, were able to floor the great louis.
I apologize for the cheap shot, sincerely, but I found the "oldie but duddy" thing so insanely out of line that it annoyed me. Who said he would be champion today? I never said any such thing, he is way too small. You think it is a great accomplishment that Vitali Klitchsko could beat Joe Louis? He is a good 50 pounds heavier and 6 imches taller! Galento and Baer were indeed crude, but they both were punchers, they both floored Louis once and then proceeded to get destroyed. Simon did not floor Joe Louis, but was himself floored 6 times in their two fights (both won by Louis on one-sided knockouts) And those fighters I mentioned were all good fighters... he fought and beat every decent heavyweight around, BIG and small -- he was a great fighter You want to exclude him from greatness because of genetics? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense... getting knocked down by guys 40+ pounds heavier than you shouldn't be that big of an issue... getting up from those knockdowns and nearly killing them with your fists SHOULD be You judge a fighter on when he fought, who was around, who he fought and how he did... you dont just say "well he was 207 pounds so Vitali's greater" anymore than you would say that some 330 pound benchwarming Left Tackle in football is better than the 290-pound Art Shell because the 330 pound guy would be the largest guy in the NFL if this were the 1970s and Art Shell would be too small to play on the line in today's NFL
Fair Enough, Jaws... Go Ahead & ADD Roberto Duran to the List of Guys that DON'T Have Good or Great Chins...Esteban DeJesus Certainly WASN'T Regarded as a Big Puncher, yet he DROPPED Duran in 2 Seperate Fights AND Hurt him a Handful of Times in their 1st Bout.... REED:mj:
Add De La Hoya to the crappy chin department too and Hopkins because he got dropped twice in the Mercado fight.
Jaws, does Duran also have a crap chin seeing as he was knocked down early with single punches by Esteban De Jesus?
dsimon writes: Jaws you could make an argument that Pryer is overated. Perhaps you could make an argument about Pryer's Defense being less than credit worthy.... It gets shakey when you try to argue both these points. It gets ridiculous when you try to compound the flight from reality by saying Pryer's chin was lacking. What you are doing is taking three absurdities ansd trying to compound them into a logical conclusion. There is a reason why all those stupid people that know boxing claim Pryer was the goods. Before you go after them you might want to look at that reasoning... carefully. I don't belittle people saying pryer was overrated (though I do not agree) but what you cannot do is what I will hitherto call the Double L strategy: One states an absurdity then top argue it instead f supporting it they simply state another absurdity.... and then another ad infinitum, ad Naseum. Bad way to argue a point. How about proof of your contention that Pryer had a poor chin to start with?
dsimon writes: Its the Double L strategy... if you can't begiule em with logic overwhelm them with absurdity.... Me: "Cdogg pink elephants exist in the meadow" Cdogg: "what? what exactly makes you sa........." me: "CDogg Joe Louis sucked" Cdogg "What!!?? now wait a secon...." Me: "CDOgg Pryer had a bad chin and Margarito was beat with a temple shot from Shane" Cdogg: confused and dazed not knowing where to start walks away.
w/Out Question, Aaron Pryor's Defense was SUAR...REED's a HUGE Fan of Pryor but Facts R FACTS...His Defense wasn't QUITE as Bad as Antonio Margarito's, but NOT Much Better... Virtually NONE of Pryor's Opponents had Difficulties N Hitting him (The 1's that Did were Taken Out EARLY)...His AGGRESSION & VOLUME PUNCHING Came w/Consequences...& that's All the MORE Reason to Give Pryor's Chin a HIGHER Grade than Jaws Does... By Jaws' Rationale, we NOW Need to RECONSIDER the Quality of Margarito's Chin::...But to REED, the KO Loss to Mosley DOESN'T Diminish the Perception of Margarito's Chin N the LEAST...He's STILL Got 1 of the Best (Quite Possibly THE BEST) Chins of his Era....If REED Knew he Had to Take a FLUSH Punch from a HARD Puncher, he'd Want to have the CHIN that Antonio Margarito has More than ANY Other Current Fighter.... Jaws HATES the Age Card Being Used AGAINST him & He's CORRECT when he Says that Age has NO BEARING on ASSESSING Fighters...But the Thing is, Jaws has ZERO PERSPECTIVE on Fighters that WEREN'T N HIS "Moment".... If U Didn't KNOW that Antonio Cervantes' Age was ALWAYS a Mystery, HINDSIGHT would EASILY Say he was "Old" when Pryor Got to him...But Years PRIOR to Pryor Beating Cervantes, Guys Wondered OUT LOUD about his Age & WHEN he'd Slip....& the FACT is, Pryor's STYLE Beat Cervantes More than Any Age Factor did....NOBODY had CROWDED Cervantes to the Degree that Pryor did & he Simply OVERWHELMED Kid Pambele... REED RESPECTS Jaws' PASSION for Boxing, but he Needs to ACCEPT the FACT that his "RECENCY" to the Sport DILUTES his Perspective on Guys from Preceding Era's...REED READILY ADMITS that he DOESN'T Hold Joe Louis N the Same Regard as Most Old Schoolers Do & That's Because REED ACKNOWLEDGES that he DOESN'T have the PERSPECTIVE that the Old Schoolers have... REED:hammert:
if aaron pryor had anything other than a steel chin he wouldve been knocked out at least 5 times. there is a reason nobody fights like that successfully save pryor.
Apparently subtlety is lost on some people. Duran took big shots from Leonard/Hagler/Barkley/others without being dropped. Pryor/Louis/other people I'm saying don't have good chins, were dropped by practically every solid puncher who touched their chinny chin chins.
Indeed, Duran proved to have an excellent chin. But Pryor proved to at least have a good one. Other than the flash knockdowns, he took much harder punches and didn't budge. Given his awful chin, why was he not KO'd by some of the harder shots he took?
you make a fair point about different eras. We will agree to disagree about any attributes Louis "bum of the month" club opponents have, but this topic has been done to death about how Joe would do today, and there are many a people who claim he would be champ today. The genesis of this is my assertion that someone whose anus hit the canvas 50 times in their career did not have a good chin, something I continue to maintain. As to the Pryor thing, brotherton Q. separatissue. Pryor was lucky to fight such meager opposition over the course of his career. As a result he was never punished by someone who could capitalize on putting him on his back given the number of times he was. People with subpar chins can be war-horses about it, example... Arturo Gatti.
Thinking Valero is the goods is so 2006. As soon as he steps up, he's getting exposed, big time. Pacman Vs Valero would be a massacre.
Tszyu's one of those unfortunate fighters, where we thought his unification victories against rival champions Mitchell and Judah, were awesome, as we seriously overrated the two, who were 'p4p' on short-lists,.. now that the dust has settled we've learned that Judah, who is still the most overrated fighter in the sport, was dealt with by Tszyu in the manner that a scrub should be dealt with. A big positive about Kostya however is his gifts to deal with quick, slick, sprinters with fast hands,... usually a nightmare,.. to Kostya they were a dellicasey,... it's part of the reason why modern day Fraud groupies were so pissy and bitter about him.
BULLSHIT... Alexis Arguello was a TRUE PUNCHER from 126-135, yet Aaron Pryor Could ALSO Make 135 like Arguello Did...Pryor FOUGHT Better than Arguello Did @ Jr. Welter, but REED ISN'T Sure that Pryor was BIGGER @ that Particular Weight.... Pryor COULDN'T Break Thru on the Lightweight Scene, so he Fought @ Jr. Welter, But DURING his Reign, Aaron Pryor was THE Jr. Welter Champ AND a Highly Ranked Lightweight SIMULTANEOUSLY.... Looooooooooong Story SHORT, Arguello NEVER Dropped Aaron Pryor..... REED:hammert:
If Guys HONESTLY Question Pryor's Opposition, then Valero has LITERALLY Fought "NOBODY"..... REED:hammert:
They might not be similar if you compare them today, but if you look at Pryor's pro fights and Valero's pro fights they are quite similar--chin up, wail away like a windmill.
