Is the shoulder roll defense legal or not?

:: Touche!

 

Ashes is like a grumpy ass old man though. He has hate in his heart.

 

Still waiting for that proof, Double L.

 

Seriously Steve ::

:dunno:

 

What? :dunno:

 

"Proof" of legal back hitting? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

 

He said it was legal if the opponent turns his back. I want proof. :dunno:

 

It's not legal we all know that, but neither is what Floyd was doing. Let's just leave it at that.

 

Thank you.

The only real illegal tactic Floyd uses, IMO, is when he pushes off with his elbow. He doesn't get called nearly enough for doing that.

 

Double L, I'm as serious as a fat lady in the buffet line.

In this sport it's kill or be killed, take or be taken.

This is war, we prepare for war in times of peace.

Nothing is more satisfying than punching a back turning bitch in the spine. :warning:

 

Toney and Ezzard Charles were the two masters at that particular move, as are Roger and Floyd Mayweather.
I know Charles was one of James' boxing heroes, and he could execute that move just as well or if not better than Ezzard.
I know it takes balls to attempt that as one miscalculation and it's lights out as your chin is unprotected.

 

He reminded me of Jimmy Young V Ali. It would n't of surprised me if he had stuck his head between the ropes...

 

Wasn't Walcott somewhat of a pioneer in this area as well?

 

Yeah, that's a good example.
I was thinking more in terms of rolling and throwing the counter uppercut which James ate Holyfield's lunch with and Charles destroyed Pat Valentino, Cesar Brion, and Rex Layne with, and really hurt Rocky on a few occasions with it.
I would say that Walcott was the master at the counter right with the roll, which is what he floored Louis with several times, and must have hit Marciano a dozen times flush with it in their first fight.
Walcott was a counterpunching genius, one of the best ever in any weight division, and he had those huge shoulders that he rolled and deflected blows with.

 

I've never seen anyone seriously hurt from this although many have been hit behind the head.

Everyone can name the Norris/Santana fight, but he wasn't seriously hurt, at least it didn't seem like it.

The one fight where it might have been a behind the head shot, but i'm not sure, was the Ratanachai vs Ibarra fight that messed up Ibarra. At least I think that was the fight...there may have been a joel luna zarate ko that had a guy out for a while, too, back then.

In any case, it doesn't happen nearly as much as the 'wive's tale' would predict. Obviously, I'm just going by empirical recollection here...and could be wrong.

 

If Fraud remained legally square like most fighters are obliged to, with his hand glued to the right side of his head, and the other laying across the left side of his body he'd be open for a left hook down low, a right hook up top, and all forms of jabs and straight shots plus the uppercut, it takes 'defensive brilliance' of the reflexes to stand your ground and guard 5 or 6 openings with two hands, however with Fraud's illegal stance he's only got to keep his hands in the same place and turn his fucking back ILLEGALLY to take away AAAAAALLLLL the holes, and there's nothing 'brilliant' about that, he now ducks and twists his HEAD to boot,..:eeeek: ..fuck!!!, and this is just the skin off the top of the soup, he runs, uses his elbow, forearms, palming-pushing in close quarters, etc, etc, etc.....as I said his style is 90% illegal and it stinks attrociously bad,...but it happens to be classified as "flashy" and "slick" so I guess that's why he's assembled thousands of Ex-Roy groupies who are in love with that padded 'zero' (They fight NOTHING ALIKE and are NOT similar yet they 'appreciate his skillz' apparently, and back Fraud up in all areas in sync with his destructive ideological views towards boxing, systematically sucking the blood out of this once great sport in a sense, across the business, matchmaking aspect aswell, and to cap it off, in press conferences last year, Fraud introduces an unprecedented victorian styled 'class' system,..:: and what's further baffling is the fact that his cock-nibblers proudly echoed the sentiment, and distributed it widely across messageboards as a solid debating tool,....:eeeek: talk about uncle Tom,..

 

I agree, I love how everyon say rabbit puches are so dangerous yet, faled to acknowledge that in some MMA organizations, puches behind the head are legal and I have yet to see a death or serious injuries from it. I remember 2 cases of guy being hurt by punches behind the head, Santos vs Tszyu and some fat amerindian bum on ESPN. So, by FTA and Steve Dave logic, Tszyu should have been dq or, at the very least, it should have been a nc

 

Lovely post sir,.. Fighters like Fraud, Toney and Hopkins use a 2 part illegal back and brain-stem defensive system,...which is attrociously glorifed by the media and forums alike,.......... Hopkins, Toney and Fraud are unique (and shameless) in the fact that they BEGIN turning thier backs on thier opponents while they are rigidly upright, ........they THEN transcend into part 2 of the illegal system, which sadly,...ALOT of other fighters seem to have adopted aswell,.........it's the notorious 'back and brainstem FOLD'..., which effectively transfers thier heads below thier opponents belt level,..where, just like part 1 of the 'shoulder roll', the only place you can crack them is along the spinal column from the arse to the top of the skull, 'the fold' usually turns into a clinch upon completion,...

Be careful when disputing the legality of fundamental impliments in certain fighting styles around here though mate,...a majority of Fightbeat posters despise boxing rules at approximately a 40 to 5 ratio,... it is to them, about favoured fighters 'winning',... not the health or potential of this sport as a whole, they dont want the rats to be flushed out, on the account of 'most' of them being American. It is as simple and as pathetic as that, thier retort against the rule book is to submit crying emoticons, and they dont realise, in thier exasperation against the truth,.. just how right they are,.. the situation is a sad one indeed.

 

Shoulder roll is legit - turning your back all the way round like Floyd does is surely illegal. Frankly after a few warnings his opponent should just be given free reign to beat the fuck out his back.

 

Turning your back on your opponent is illegal full stop. You can't perform the shoulder roll and remain legally square I'm afraid. The closest legal relative to the shoulder roll is the 'chin-tuck' which can be done by shrugging the lead shoulder up and tilting the head down within a legally square stance where the spine does not twist,...Hopkins uses this pose by default (it's simultaneously great for bumping the forehead in),...but his pose changes once his opponent advances too close,... he then becomes an utter disgraceful coward.

 

Who do you despise more, Hopkins or Floyd?

 

Hopkins by far!,..

Fraud's felons are all to do with defending himself, the cactus elbow, forearm and palming/pushing the head back, is more of a 'keep away' tool than a malicious infliction..

Hopkins felons are essentially fundamental to his entire game, both defensively and offensively, he embraces exploitation of the rules and lack of enforcement (perhaps pre-organised),..and will gladly roll around on the floor screaming if his opponent roughs him back up.

 

exactly what I was going to say

 

Nah man, I definitely think rolling with a shot or blocking with your shoulder is a perfectly legit move. Your opponent couldn't legally hit you with a right in the position you end up in, but that's utterly irrelevant because his right is in extension and he isn't in a position in a position to throw it anyway. And of course he can still come back with a left. So as long as you don't then stay balled up there once the shot has been retracted, it's a great move.

What Floyd often seems to do is some sort of bastardized preemptive shoulder roll though, where he basically shows the other guy his back before the shot is thrown, so the guy doesn't have the option of throwing it legally in the first place. He isn't protecting himself, he's relying on the ref and the rules to do it for him, which IMO makes a mockery of the sport. He should get points off for that shit, or even better have his back and back of his head battered until he stops doing it.

 

The way PBF does it most of the times-yes. In fact most of his defensive techique is. He turns his back on his opponent & bends right over.

 

how is this ridiculous? you're ridiculous. you have no logic to back up any of your arguments, ever. you never did. and you never will. you're the true definition of a troll. critical but without the intelligence (or effort) to construct a coherent argument. so you do what you do best. toss insults and try to belittle posters who's posts you don't like.

Ridiculous.

 

whose

 

thanks.

seriously though. since this very old thread was made, PBF continues to turn his back and bend over when he's in trouble and can't get out of the corner. how can his opponent respond to that inteligently other than to hit him there? and when and if he does, he should not be penalized for it.

it's the same deal when someone lands a low-blow but isn't called for it because his opponent was pulling his head down. same exact concept.

it shouldn't even be debatable except that in the eyes of so many on this fcking board PBF can do no wrong.

this is typical of a thread that is critical of PBF. half of the posters make logical and substantiated arguments and the other half sling insults and get personal.

should tell you something about who's right and who's wrong.

 

Well, thoroughly agreed on Fraud ofcourse,... .. but I dont understand what you mean by 'rolling with a shot' as opposed to turning your back?....I would think in order to 'roll', you've got to twist that spine pre-emptively to compete with the lightning quick speed of a punch,.. it may be just a flash in sequence, but so is a soft head knick or quick brush accross the balls,.. it's still on the spectrum and it's still illegal.

 

I found this thread through google,.. Fightbeat appears to be the only messageboard in the world to have identified the illegal foundation of the shoulder roll,.. and that fills me with a sense of short-lived pride really :cheer:,..---------but it also helps to illustrate a grim reality, considering 40 people to 5 on fightbeat, also think Hopkins headbutts, low blows, clinches, hold and hits, excessive failure to engage, etc is well in accordance with the rules of boxing,........:notallthere: Ummmmmmmm.... What The Fuck!?,........THUS, you can imagine the same tally across other messageboards,...:shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit: *splat*,...

.............Yes, so, boxing's chances of proper regulation, are about as likely as 'world peace'..