Is the shoulder roll defense legal or not?

Exactly

Those are examples where it becomes simply a matter of ducking and turning and is not a legit defensive move

THOSE are illegal

but the shoulder roll, done properly, is not illegal

 

I said at the time the vid i posted was far from a perfect example. But it contained the basic kernel of what a legit shoulder roll is, minus the actual deflection of the blow with the shoulder. The stuff you saw from Floyd there isn't a shoulder roll - it's cheating.

 

Fraud's stance is legal,..

Right here -->

No problems, the flow of the boxing match can continue, Fraud is blocking the left side of his stomach, leaving his head open.

Then all of a sudden with just a little micro-twist..

--->

The whole of Fraud's left side becomes an illegal hit zone,.. kidney's, spine and brainstem,...Oscar's right hand, according to the rules, should now be completely disabled?....

The next 2 frames in this sequence is as you already know the "full twist and fold", more suitable for springboard diving than the boxing ring,...... it just goes to show.. how foul riddled this illegal defence truelly is,...and the way Fraud can fluctuate in subtle ways between the 1 part legal, 6 parts illegal zones,.. it's like Hopkins sometimes butting soft,...sometimes really putting in the full gore ::.

 

Oscar's right hand is already disabled - he's already thrown it! He doesn't have two right hands, mate. As long as Floyd isn't in that position when Oscar is in a position to throw another right (which he often is and should be penalized immediately for, preferably with a barrage to the kidneys and brain stem) then there is no foul. If he turns too far and happens to take the shot on the kidney then it's entirely his fault.

 

Yeah but see that's the other thing,.. this is what I mean by his right hand should now be 'disabled'...according to the rules, illegal activity now runs rampant,.. 'foul for foul' ..cant work either,.. the initial felon must be pulled up,.. and that's Fraud,.. with his 'masterful' defence.

All praise the DELICIOUSLY LEGAL, TRUE masters of defence,.. Winky Wright,..Joshua Clottey,..Arthur Abraham,.. Eddie Chambers,... they abide by the rules when they dont even have to!!!!..ray:

Because of this thread Hut Hut,.. I now must wear 'the bible' in my avatar at all times for protection,.. it makes all the demons shreik and hiss and turn thier heads and cover thier eyes,..

 

Thank you! Exactly!!

Close the thread!

 

So above we see Oscar hitting Fraud in the back,.. and thats ok?,.. no legal problems there?...

How did Oscar hit Floyd in the back?... did he jump behind him and hit his back?,.. or was the back presented to him as he hit it?...

Whatever the case, ............it's both illegal, for Oscar to hit him there,..and for Fraud to defend the entire left side of his body and head with his kidneys and brain-stem. The only way to clean this shit up, is to penalise Fraud for turning on his opponent. Full stop. Closing threads is not going to vaporise the rules of boxing,.. as I said, I think this might be unprecedented in any other sport,...it's like trying to defend some 'legendary midfielder' for slapping the ball down with his hand on the soccer pitch,..then screaming and writhing and rolling around trying to free him from the burden of internationally recognised rules, to benefit that 1 fucking player,..and not the entire game.. :notallthere:.... Oh,..let me guess.."whats soccer got anything to do with this??" .....^^^^^ there's framed evidence in abundance, virtually taken in a sequence,...yet you,.. are still trying to desperately find a way to clear that maneuver, which is irrefuteably illegal, in accordance with the rules of boxing. Im not trying to be offensive, nor am I trying to be a troll,..it's just baffling that you cannot see the contradiction in what Fraud does, verses what the rules permit.

 

If Floyd takes the shot on his back it's because he's fucked up the move! But he certainly doesn't gain any advantage by fucking up the move and taking a kidney shot instead of taking it on his elbow, so why bother to penalize it? The sore kidney is his penalty. The problem comes when he stays in that position long enough to discourage another right from being thrown. Frankly even that wouldn't be a problem if the ref made it quite clear that his opponent had carte blanche to keep throwing to wherever was open to hit when he was in the illegal position. It would permanently correct itself within 30 seconds, ideally by knock out.

Lastly, I think most people have acknowledged that you make a good point that allot of what Floyd and Hopkins do is illegal and needs to be addressed. It's just that most don't wanna throw the baby out with the bath water like you seem to.

 

:mj: Precisely

 

But Hut Hut,... the rules are there to rid the sport of any foul play at all, and a foul has still been comitted here, as Oscar has hit Fraud in an illegal zone,... it isnt his fault, as Fraud clearly turned his back to him,..but the only way to prevent any foul in coming to fruition in this fashion again,...is to penalise Fraud for initially turning his back, which has resulted in this chain of felonies,....

It's also 'risky' ...from the aggressors point of view,.. to take the law into his own hands you see, and smack Fraud in the spine or the brain-stem,...because afterall,.. it is illegal in kind to do that,.. aswell as it being more 'blatant and detectable' in appearance, due to the fact that people tend to naturally be concerntrated on the action, 'the aggression' instead of the illegal defensive maneuver.. so as a result, you may draw an incompetant biased hypocrit like Joe Cortez, in a REAL scenario,.. taking points away from the aggressor, without realising the fact that there was a foul commited resulting in this secondary foul. Im referring to the Fraud - Hatton fight ofcourse,..(Hatton is far from an angel,.. but that's for another thread),...

You know,..I can vaguely see what your trying to say about 'legally' rolling with a shot,.. .. but... ... it is still on the extreeeeeeeeeeme far edge of the 'turning' spectrum,....as you'd have to be touched by the glove from a legally square stance,..and virtually absorb a bit of it before you can twist with it to lessen the impact,...(this could be defensively solved by simply blocking the shot with your conventional left glove)..but anyway...if you turn away from the punch before it lands.... it's still on the very extreme 'edge' of the 'turning' spectrum... and as petty as it is.. it would still have to be classified as illegal as the softest brush to your opponent's balls.

Also you know if the rules were enforced,.. can you imagine the amount of points the aggressor could take away from his 'shoulder rolling' opponent,.. just by feinting the right hand?.. 'the twisting' to roll with the speed of a punch would have to be a little pre-emptive (which is why it's on the far end of the turning spectrum)....thus if the rules were indeed enforced for 'turning',.. the 'legal' shoulder roller,.. could result in outright disqualification before the second round. *Feint, twist, :nono: uh!,..*feint, twist, :nono: uh!.. that's it... one point..

On a slightly different tangent,...................Im also interested to know..and we havent discussed this yet,..but is it even legal to hit your opponent on the back of the shoulder and arm?.. the rules state that you simply cant hit your opponents 'back'.... somebody said 'you can hit Floyd's shoulder and it counts as a scoring blow' .. that may all be good and well with your left hand... .. but once again.. the right hand has nothing but illegal zones to hit,.. inlcuding PERHAPS,.. the back of the shoulder...and consequently,.. now the 'chin tuck'.. may come in to the question of 'illegal zones'.. aswell,.. ..:doh: ..christ,...the more we talk about it, the worse it seems to get for Fraud, Hopkins and Toney...

 

Look, as with all things, the rules in boxing are there for a reason beyond their own existence - that being to avoid one competitor gaining an unfair advantage over the other or in so doing harming the other competitor. Since neither is happening in the instance we're talking about, I see no reason for any intervention at all. In fact, frankly, I think you're being anal as hell.

And yeah I think it is or should be legal to hit your opponent on the back of the arm or shoulder, especially if it's the defend-ee who causes it to land there, since there is no significant danger in doing so. I don't really think it would be considered a 'scoring blow' as such, at least not in the same way a head shot of body would be, since it would do much less damage (hence the reason for that defensive style), which is the measure by which we score professional boxing.

 

Well I guess we must finally agree to disagree then Hut Hut,...but we DO AGREE on 5 of those 6 frames in the very least^^^, and during the course of this discussion, neither threatenned to fly over to fight the other?...:dunno:

It is of my opinion, that the rules are there, direct, set and structured without compromise, as in thier fundamental and literal elements, the rules keep both defense and offense legally square of one another, so that blows are either landed or deflected without illegal zones being incorperated into the exchanges.

I must disagree about the bit of 'no harm could be caused'... as there is a real life example of it,.. I mean, yes James Toney had it coming, it was his own fault for turning on Hasim Rahman and abandoning the rules that were already there to protect his lacerated kidney region, but it should not have even got to that stage,..Toney should not have had the choice to abandon the rules at all.

 

Didn't actually see that fight mate. But at least we can agree that allot of what Floyd and Hopkins do IS illegal and should be rectified. :cheer:

 

That was a good line, man:bears:

 

Hey Kaukip, bit late now obviously, but this was the video I meant to post as a demo of a shoulder roll. :: It's got almost the exact same title and has the same two people in the ring together as the one I posted....you can kinda see my confusion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWbYhbDwwCM&feature=channel

 

Thanks Hut Hut,.. I'll have a look at that tonight,... and if as a result I dissapear with "internet problems" ... you'll know that I've seen that the shoulder roll can be performed without breaching the rules on any part of the 'turning spectrum'... and that I have fled bitterly.

 

this shit is part of boxing.. it's only Euro obsessed guys who jock some euro and don't wanna see Floyd whup 'em.

in reality a lot of fighters have fought in this style.. some of Pea's fights he did WAAAAY WAAY more of this stuff than Floyd.. I think Floyd does it a bit but not excessfully, he is just a master in there and haters gotta find some way have an excuse or something

 

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