Williams vs Pavlik

I just find it interesting that you're using punchstat numbers as the basis of an argument.

I'm not quite sure what the basis for the rest of this post is, but you've built a nice little strawman for yourself.

 

williams doesn't have good enough defense to avoid pavliks bombs for 36 minutes. if his chin is good enough to take those shots then there is no doubt he'll win.

 

because if a guy has two fights against elite fighters where neither does any better than land 28% of their punches while the guy is fighting in a constantly aggressive manner, his defense is at least DECENT

I find it interesting that this point is lost on you

You arent sure what the basis for the rest of the post is? You were saying Williams has bad defense... to me thats an exaggeration

So I offered two extremes of defensive acuity... one great and one undeniably BAD

When I think BAD defense, I think Tex Cobb or Mickey Ward

Again, tell me why Paul Williams is BAD defensively

Notice, I have never said that he was really good

 

I dunno about connect percentages but williams eats a lot of hard flush shots. if his chin can't withstand those punches from pavlik then he aint gonna be able to win the fight on the strength of his defense.

 

I have never said anything to dispute that

The first thing I said in this thread was that Williams's chin is the ultimate X factor in this matchup. He needs to be able to handle a big middleweight punch

 

I think Pavlik will really have to make sure his advantage in punching power is a factor early on and not just as the big "equalizer". Williams might be the smaller guy, but he has just as much stamina and also quicker hands. If Pavlik gets into a fencing match at long range trading jabs he could find himself behind and then looking to desparately for the big shot. (which will be easier to see coming at that point)

I think he'll have to come at Williams right away and make him feel the pain. Although both guys can fight and box, the larger guy with the bigger punch is going to get the better of it 90% of the time.

Both guys usually enjoy a large height and reach advantage they won't have here. It will be interesting to see how (if at all) it changes their approach.

 

agreed on all counts

it is always intriguing when two fighters with unusual height advantages face one another... doesnt happen very often because such fighters are unusual

 

Your use of language is nice, but by using statistics you are only addressing volume of punches, which is only one way of determining defense, and frankly, it's a rather lazy one, IMO.

When he's not leading, he'll look better defensively, sometimes his hands are up, sometimes he'll move his head, or upperbody, and try to avoid or block punches. But when he's initiating, when he's throwing - which he spends plenty of time doing - he is very open for punches and in a 12 round fight, he is going to catch a very fair amount of clean punches...because of where his body is, his chin is, because he doesn't do much to mitigate the punches impact.

I do not think that is a sign of good defense.

 

I don't think a "fencing" match where they're trading jabs is really in either fighter's gameplan.

I do think Pavlik will have to continue to come forward in the fight, and he has to be willing to punch when William's is punching, because while he won't beat Williams to the punch, he has enough technique and accuracy that he can finish exchanges.

 

And I never said he was a good defensive fighter

I just said he isnt bad

Nor did I say that punchstats are the be-all end-all of determining excellence offensively or defensively

I was using them only to illustrate that considering his very aggressive offensive style, he doesnt get hit as much as many fighters would if they attempted to fight in the same manner

my use of language? another insult, how surprising

words mean things

"Bad" means something, "Good" means something, "Great" means something

These words are used far too generally when discussing boxing

Tex Cobb and Mickey Ward were "bad" defensively

Paul Williams clearly doesnt belong in that category

 

I should amend that, your use of language and your ability to invent.

 

Its a smattering of insults, nothing more

You still havent established that Paul Williams is a bad defensive fighter

 

Nah, all you've done it present a bullshit argument in which you've substituted your own definitions for other people's words, thereby creating the appearance of a position that Paul Williams is the same as Randell Tex Cobb, defensively.

 

you said he has a bad defense

you havent substantiated that argument

 

Well i wouldn't be surprised if it was Williams' game plan even though that's not characterstic of his style. It would certainly suit him more than Pavlik in that kind of bout.

 

Not with your definition.

 

good, we agree::::

 

I don't think Williams has the jab to do it, and probably not the discipline either....plus it would limit his best attribute, his activity level.

 

Agree, I cant see this guy not trying to throw a zillion punches per round

 

Paul Williams already beat a better, stronger pressure fighter in Antonio Margarito, and that was WITH his plaster of paris.

This is a gimme for Paul.

 

Just thought I shouold quote this.

 

R U Saying that Margarito is BETTER than Pavlik???...


REED

 

Neither guy has ever backed down from a challenge, both are warriors, this can be one of the great matchups over the last several years if it happens.

 

Arum won't let this happen. It's too bad because I think it's a pretty even match.

I know that Winky is not Pavlik but for years I wanted to see Winky against Pavlik.

Skill wise Williams is a nightmare for Pavlik but I wonder how he would take Pavlik's shots over an over. I don't think Williams would throw as many punches per round.

Awesome fight but it probably won't happen because of Arum.

 

Pavlik hurts ANYONE, if he lands that flush extended straight right to the chin or temple,.. he would definitely hurt Williams with it,.. but I dont know if he would be able to hit him clean, often enough,.. it's an intruiging fight,...to his possible detriment, Williams doesn't spoil or run like a bitch, so it's a straight up matter of power verses workrate,...Williams will land more, Pavlik will land the much harder shots,.. it'll be a close, entertaining squabble, depending on how much Williams is willing to circle and box,..8-4 type win if he uses plenty of angles,..

It's funny though,.. what happenned to ... "tiny wittle welterweight Paul wuld be KILLED by MIDDLEWEIGHT PAVLIK"... :shit:... when are certain people going to accept the fact that 'day before weigh-ins' is an incompetant system for assuring matchups of equally sized fighters per division??.. .. Paul Williams has the frame of a fucking cruiserweight...6"4 86 inch reach,... he's my prime example of support to the notion that geometrical measurements should replace 'weight'.. as to determining a fighters division, though that's no personal slant on him, he's not the only one who fights in divisions he doesnt belong in,...like this matchup for example, Pavlik doesnt belong at 160 either,..

 

:doh: Margarito better than Pavlik?

 

Not to mention stronger.. and there is really no indication that Margarito had his hands loaded in tha fight either.. What else was therein Alabama's post?

 

Margarito would get destroyed by Pavlik. No fucking doubt about it.

What happens to Williams when a man as big as him puts the pressure on? Will he back up or stand his ground? What happens when a guy has an equal or longer reach than Williams? I think it's a tough fight for either guy. I'm favoring Pavlik though, he's the bigger, stronger man. He won't back up and go into a shell like Winky. He doesn't back up.

It's a good fight, I hope it gets made.

 

Valuev?.. :dunno: