Juan Manuel Marquez is overrated

:atu:

a. JMM will have never fought above 135 by the time he faces PBF - Duran had already dismantled Palomino and proven he could carry the weight

b. JMM has had two fights at 135; Duran had a career's worth of fights at 135.

c. Mosley started his career at 135 (not 126) and like Duran fought plenty of fights there and was always a huge light-weight. Plus, like Duran, he proved himself a legitimate welter-weight by first beating Rivera.

d. Do you forsee JMM going on to have success at 154 or 160 the way Duran, Whitaker and Mosley did?

 

Floyd deserves criticism, I just dont think he deserves the Double L brand of criticism

Mayweather could walk on water and Double L's take would be "Mayweather Can't Swim!"

 

I didn't think JMM looked small against Joel and Juan at all. Never were they able to bully him or rough him. The fact that JMM was able to hurt them so often and be the 1st guy to KO them speaks by itself IMO.

People want to see Floyd beat but at the same time, DEEEEP down they know the kid has mad skills. That's why they push for him to fight a Margarito or Williams, guys who tower over him like a little kid hoping that size itself beats him.

This is all so relative, with the weights and everything. 10 years ago everyone thought Judah and Hatton and the rest of the Jr. Welterweights would KO Floyd on size and strenght alone. Just the though of Manny beating Hatton would be deemed as a joke and thinking JMM would rule the Lightweight division would seem like the thought of a fanatic. But I've come to learn that when it comes skills and talent, size means shit 90% of the time.

 

What brand is that? The factual kind? The holistic kind? The unforgiving kind? If you don't think he deserves that type of criticism, then what kind does he deserve? The "look the other way and play along with the charade" kind?

 

"anyone trying to categorize PBF's fighting JMM as a legitimate fight must, if secretly, be a nut-hugger. because logic defies it."

Hmmmm....this is bullshit. Just because you are only capable of discussing fighters in terms of love or hate doesn't mean everyone else's viewpoint is that narrow.


"but if you say so, and you're not a PBF fan, i'll mark it down because it's important information to know where you stand when it comes to PBF."

I bet you think you are being cool and snarky here...but you actually just sound like a jackass. I was in no way being a dick to you so there's no call for you to be one to me.

"i was simply responding to your post which seems to excuse PBF, a 147 pounder, contenders in his own division, in favor of fighting career feather-weights who've had two fights at 135."

There have been plenty of fights throughout boxing history in which Lightweights have moved up to fight at Junior Welter and Welter. And that scenario is not the mismatch you try to make it sound like.

"and there's no comparison when it comes to Pacquiao. that's my guess anyways. i don't think JMM will carry his speed and power up two weight classes the way Manny has. Pacquiao's success at 140 and at 147 is an exception to the rule and PBF knows this which is probably why we'll never see him fight Pacquiao, even if he beats JMM (which as good as JMM is all but a foregone conclusion given the advantages PBF will enjoy)."

The bottom line is that you DON'T KNOW how good JMM will be.
Since JMM is a great fighter and one that has pushed Pacquaio more than anyone he has faced, I think he deserves the benefit of doubt.

 

:hammert:

 

You honestly believe JMM has a shot? I sincerely hope he wins but IMO Floyd has all the advantages, even skillwise. I tried to convince myself JMM had a shot but I couldn't.

 

I do...
As I stated in the other thread about Marquez and mayweather...
Mayweather will get hit clean and often, name other fights that were able to do that?
We will see where he is at after a long lay off too.

 

Oh and skillwise...Marquez is better...his combinations are the best that there has been...

 

I don't know how these fights are comparable to JMM vs Floyd... All these guys were in their absolute prime and the had already a fight to get accostumed to the weight. Marquez is 36 years old and 2 years removed from fighting at featherweight. I think Marquez has no shot. You honestly think he has a shot? How much would you be willing to bet on Marquez?

 

The kind that is clearly manipulative and one-sided

you dont hold any fighter you like to anywhere near the stringent standards you demand of the ones you hate

you are and have always been like this

 

I love your enthousiasm and positive attitude but honestly, as much as I'd love it to happen, I don't believe Marquez will win, or even make it close.

I remember you also tought Gatti would give Mayweather a tough fight, I think you might underestimate how good Mayweather is.

 

I believe he is a great fighter who is still fighting at a high level. And I believe a great fighter almost always has a chance to win. Would I favor Mayweather? Yes I would. Will I pick Mayweather? I'm sure I will. But I also think JMM will give a good account of himself and if that happens it shouldn't be a knock on Mayweather.

And like "the Genius" mentioned in one of the other threads...this isn't a bad match for Floyd's first fight after a layoff. I'd rather see this than Floyd against some bottom of the top 20 opponent (and that's being optimistic) who happens to weigh over 140 lbs.

 

Lets not talk about how I am with Gatti, I pick him over a prime Sugar Ray Robinson, and to beat Ali at Heavyweight... sorry Gatti just can't lose...and don't bring up his record, cuz we all know boxing politics...

Mayweather is an all-time great one of the best of all times, easily, but this is the first time he is going to go against a guy that is a better boxer than he is, who is smarter than he is, someone who knows how to adapt...PBF has never fought a fighter like this before...ever.

 

Betting on a fighter that you think "has a shot" isn't quite the same as betting on a fighter you think will win.

 

I think he's way over his head here, he's nothing more than a tune up for Mayweather. It is a fight with a pre written script and I hate these kind of fights. Of course, anything can happen in boxing but this is not how you justify a fighter's opposition IMHO. It's kind of sad to me to see the supposedly best WW in the world take on a career featherweight, no matter how good he is, when there are plenty of pretty good guys around his weight. I thought Mayweather was a WW, I guess I was wrong.

 

just curious but what would you say if pacquaio fought marquez at 143lbs?

 

You're right I should have worded it differently, "What odds would you need to put money on Marquez". Is that better?

 

I think he'd kill him. I think Pac is a freak of nature that kept his speed and converted the added weight into even more concussive power. That's why I wouldn't say a word if Mayweather fought Pac. In fact, that's one of the fights I really want to see.

BTW, I wouldn't say a word either if Pac fought Marquez at 143, but it wouldn't happen. Pac could fight him lower, and given their history together, no criticism would be founded.

 

pacquiao has had two chances to prove he can kill marquez, he cant.

 

I agree with this post.

Mayweather is smart in picking who he fights, who can deny this? A lot of thought goes into exactly who, when, and at what weight. In a way, you have to admire this since it has worked out fabulously for him. In another way, you have to despise this because a good number of great fights never got made, especially at welter.

Mayweather wanted a safe barometer for the potential fight with Pac. So he picks someone who has fought well with Pac, someone who is smaller in just about every way you can measure, and someone who is almost desperate for a big money fight, as opposed to fighting young upstarts like Valero in difficult fights for far less money and far less reward should he (Marquez) win.

As I have posted before, Mayweather expects his physical advantages to be the determining factor should the technical game be a close one. And he is probably right. If he is wrong, he eeks out a potshot decision and re-retires. If as expected he wins a clear decision and doesn't feel too rusty, he calls out Pac and makes lame argument like "Pac barely won a split decision against Marquez in 2 fights... I beat him 8-4, baby. Who better?"

One can only root for Marquez and pray for that freak style matchup where JMM is effective and decides to make a last stand and just goes balls out. This is unlikely, but it is the weak hope I cling to.

 

At 126 and 130...

I guess we simply don't see eye to eye on how the added weight affect each of these fighters. IMO, Pac isn't affected by it and one could even argue he benefits from it. I don't think Marquez will be unaffected by the weight gain. I hope I'm wrong though.

 

Agreed.

 

and if mayweather dominates and stops marquez?

 

JMM has no chance, very easy fight for Mayweather. Floyd, fight a fucking ww or get the fuck out of that division, the gimmick has run long enough. JMM was hardly dominating vs either Casamoyor or Diaz, sure he was the 1st one to stop them and these are very good wins but Cassamayor is very over the hill and Diaz basically quits after getting cut as shown vs Campbell and is far from p4p material. And both of these fights were close as hell before the stoppage. This fight is disgusting not only because it's a ppv tuneup, but because once again PBF doesn't fight a legit welter and worst of all, it fucks over the lightweight division and all the good fight JMM could have there

 

don't you think that when a fighter is heralded as the world's p4p #1 fighter, and declares himself as such on a regular basis, that he should be held to a higher standard than the average fighter?

it's why i was constantly critical of RJJ during his light heavyweight reign and it's why i'm now critical of PBF.

it has nothing to do with love or hate.

 

well pacquiao has certainly proven me wrong twice as to how the weight would affect him. he is punching as hard as ever. all that may not matter going against guys like marquez or mayweather who arent easy targets.

 

Exactly, it's kind of like arguing Esteban Dejesus could go life and death with Hagler because Duran did. Marquez hasn't prove he can be effective over 135 lbs

 

dont watch the fight then. its called PRIZE fighting, no one twisted marquez's arm to take a multi million dollar fight instead of facing valero or some other lightweight for relative peanuts. your anger is misdirected.

 

On this you're right... I bitch and I'll sure watch... :: I know Marquez is the one that asked for the fight but I would rather see him fight someone else, Floyd too... I guess that's probably because I don't want to watch one of my favourites get beat up in a lost cause...

It's all about money, and Marquez sure deserve a good pay day before his career ends. I guess I'll shut up from now on.