Froch vs Pavlik early next year!

Arum is saying that Kelly will fight Sturm in the fall, then move up and fight Froch early next year. Why the Abraham fight wont come off idk, perhaps Arum sees Froch as more beatable that Arthur. In any case, isnt Froch supposed to be fighting Bute in the fall? If so, its likely Kelly wont be fighting Froch for a belt. Bute will school Froch.

I'd love to see Pavlik-Froch though. Would be guaranteed fireworks. Thoughts?

 

If this fight is at 168, I'd pick Froch, simply because Pavlik seems, on the available evidence, to be one of those very good MW's who simply lose a whole lot of their effectiveness when they move up and out of 160.

MTF

 

He's less effective cause he's fighting guys more his size. Pavlik is a super middle who's hiding at 160. 168 is around his more natural size. He should be made a favorite over Froch, because he's a better all around fighter, but I certainly wouldnt discount Froch's chances. He's a big man like Kelly, and he has the punch to dent Pavlik's mediocre chin. I'll be rooting for Froch. The Taylor fight made me a fan of Carl.

 

Here's a thought? Why does everyone think Abraham is so good? Who the hell did he ever beat? Edison Miranda? Well, he didn't beat him before essentially losing to him, and even then it was a Miranda coming off a severe beating at the hands of Pavlik.

I've only seen Abraham fight a couple of times. But why would he be more of a threat than Froch? I doubt Froch could beat Andrade. But I'm not so sure he wouldn't beat Bute in similar fashion as Andrade did (unofficially).

Anyways. WTF has Abraham done? Why the clamor for a fight between he and Pavlik? I'd watch it. And my guess it would be somewhat competitive. But I don't know what criteria anyone's looking at who would pick Abraham to beat Pavlik.

 

Which is pretty sad and cheap really seeing as he's the divisions Paul Williams.

As for the fight,... It has just come to my attention.. seeing Haye and Vitali.. use the same 'lead left down' technique...that.... this does appear to really help the accuracy of your punches,... so,.. although I used to call Froch a defenceless mechanical arsehole bound for failure,.. his style could be backwards compatable with an insidiously effective offense,.. so who knows,.. he will lose soon,.. but perhaps he can worm his way through one or two more.

 

I agree that he's an enigma,.. I have seen evidence of good things,.. and bad things in equal measure,.. but like Winky and Clottey,.. in todays game,.. you really gotta appreciate a thoroughly legal defence.

 

agREED...The DECREASE in Pavlik's 1 Shot Power is Most Noticeable...& he's even SLOWER than Normal @ the Higher Weight...



REED:hammert:

 

disagREED...

Pavlik is TAILOR MADE for 160...He Gets MAXIMUM Efficiency Out of his POWER, STRENGTH & WORKRATE @ 160....If that WEREN'T his True Weight, he'd FATIGUE, WEAKEN or LOSE Snap on his Shots as the Fight Progressed....But he DOESN'T....




REED:mj:

 

Because Abraham is The ONLY Other Middleweight that Pavlik Should B Facing...Guys like YOU Bitched when Roy Didn't Face MichalSHITski...OR when Floyd Didn't Face Margarito...

Well, Abraham is THE Guy Pavlik SHOULD Face, if he's Gonna Remain @ Middleweight...Instead, he's Tapdancing AROUND Abraham, Facing JUNIOR MIDDLEWEIGHTS Like Rubio & Mora (Even Though that Fight THANKFULLY Dissolved) & NONentities like Sperm...

Either Move UP to '68 Now OR Face Abraham...REED LIKES Pavlik, but Couldn't Care Less about ANY of his Other Middleweight Fights that DON'T Involve Abraham...



REED:mj:

 

Reed please, It might have something to do with smaller weaker opponents at 160,..which makes him look like Zeus,...

 

Didn't he beat Taylor at 168?

Pavlik's, even at 160, doesn't have one punch power. He puts his punches together well and is a great finisher. That's how he scores his knock-outs.

And everywhere you look you hear Pavlik can't be effective above 160? Why does everyone say that? He's 1/2 above 160 and the loss came to a dirty rotten scoundrel of a fighter in Hopkins, on a day when Pavlik was sick and suffering from tendonitis. Does Pavlik, or his camp for that matter, seem like the type to make shit like that up?

Whoa? Pavlik lost one fight at 170 to a supposed all-time great (all-time great spoiler). Therefore he can't have success above 160. Sounds like a pretty sound hypothesis with tons of evidence to support it. Doesn't it?

Meanwhile, Froch stuggles to beat Taylor and has to grab victory from the jaws of defeat and he's suddenly some tough customer?

I don't get it. I know it's an expression that a fighter is only as good as his last fight. But we all know it's not true - it's just an expression - one that points out the oddity of fight fans and their tendency to attribute way too much meaning to a single fight.

 

Yeah but those guys (Margarito and DM) were beating top competition. I don't see Abraham doing that.

 

So he Gets CREDIT for Beating a CAREER Loooooooooong MIDDLEWEIGHT @ 168???::...Moreso, the EFFECTS of Pavlik's Shots WEREN'T as Great on Taylor as they Were in the 1st Fight (@ 160)...

@ 160, Pavlik HURTS Guys w/SINGLE Shots...@ 168, Pavlik HASN'T Even Come Close to Registering a KnockDOWN, Nevermind a KO...

For the LAST Fucking Time, PROVE This "Sick, Tendonitis" BULLSHIT or Let it Go, Dude...U NEVER EVER Afford Other Fighters the Luxury of an Excuse, yet Because U LIKE Pavlik, U're CLINGING to this 1 like a Life Preserver:boohoo:...PROVE it or Please STOP Dwelling On It...

The FACT is, Kelly Pavlik Has Looked LESS than Stellar, & Even Borderline AVERAGE, Above 160...THAT'S Why Fans Say he ISN'T as Effective Above 160...



REED:hammert:

 

MichalSHITski was???...


REED:dunno:

 

pavlik may as well fight abraham, on the off chance that he has bronchitis and/or a sore shoulder we may get a competitive fight

 

DM beat Hill in impressive fashion, I'll give him that. But other than that he largely feasted on bums, and Roy's leftovers. P4P I think DM was a better fighter than Abraham though.

 

So who you favor between Pavlik & Froch?

 

pavlik would knock froch out.

 

you're basically trying to establish a fact based on two fights. it's like saying Duran had no chin because Hearns knocked him out with one punch.

Again: PAVLIK HAS FOUGHT 2 TIMES ABOVE 160 AND LOST ONE OF THOSE CONTESTS.

Use your head.

 

RJJ left-overs? Yeah. Because RJJ is known for ruining fighters - all the ferocity he showed in the ring and his always going for the knock-out.

I don't want to get into a RJJ discussion but just because he beat a guy before DM did shouldn't diminish the DM's win.

 

Pavlik said himself he was happy to oblige Taylor's request that the rematch be at a higher weight. That he'd be more comfortable.

Also, do you think it's possible that Taylor learned a thing or two from the first fight with Pavlik and that maybe that's why Pavlik didn't knock him out in the second fight?

 

:shit:

Here's what YOU Said...

And everywhere you look you hear Pavlik can't be effective above 160? Why does everyone say that?

Based on what we've SEEN of Pavlik ABOVE 160, there's Only ONE Logical Conclusion to B Formed, Dude...& Until PROVEN OTHERWISE, the People that STICK To that Conclusion can Do So RIGHTFULLY...

Use YOUR Head, Doub...YOU'RE the 1 Sitting Around, Awaiting some MAGICAL, UNSEEN, Supermiddleweight Brilliance Out of Pavlik...N the Future, Don't Ask "Why" if U CAN'T Handle the Answer or REFUTE The Logic Behind it....



REED:hammert:

 

"Comfort" ISN'T Synomous w/EFFECTIVE, Doub...Ricky Hatton's Probably MORE Comfortable @ 200 lbs...Doesn't Mean he'd B EFFECTIVE There...

Jermain Taylor was NEVER the Most LEARNED Fighter...The ONLY Thing he Did "Different" was Go Back to his Original Trainer...THE SAME Guy who DIDN'T Feel like he KNEW Enough about the Pro Game to Work Taylor's Corner...



REED::

 

Roy beat the living shit outta Richard Hall in one of the most one sided fights in recent memory. Then DM fights Hall, and was given HELL for the majority of the fight til Hall's eye swelled.

DM also scored a questionable stoppage over Montell Griffin after Roy had starched Griffin in the rematch.

I believed he also struggled over Derrick Harmon, who Roy treated as a sparring partner. And of course, he ended up losing to your favorite WHOlio Gonzalez, who was formerly shut out by Jones.

DM's whole career is based off feeding off guys who Roy beat 1st, and struggling against them, whilst Roy dominated them.

Yet some believe DM could have beaten Roy.:laughing:

 

Are you blind?

Yes Pavlik beat Taylor at 168, but he BRUTALLY stopped him at 160 as opposed to winning a competative decision at 168.

Then he fights Hopkins, who we are regularly told is past it at 43 at 170lb and is brutally dismantled; looking extremely slow, cumbersome, hittable, diminished in punching power and all round horrible.

These two fights are sufficient to indicate that Pavlik's effectiveness is diminished beyond 160 to anyone who has a pair of eyes. In fact, I suggested as such PRIOR to his fight with Hopkins, based solely on the Taylor rematch.

There is nothing new or unique in fighters losing their effectiveness when they move up- Hatton is the most obvious current example- but the jump from 160 to 168 has REGULARLY had a negative impact on some world class operators. Benn, Eubanks and McClellan are all examples of world class 160 fighters who were good BUT not the same at 168.

Nobody is saying that Pavlik can't have success at 168 but that does not detract from the FACT that he has looked far less effective above 160. Is he a better fighter than Froch P4P? Probably. Is he more likely to beat him based on their respective achievements at 168 or above? Probably not.

MTF

 

Froch is a brutal KTFO waiting to happen, but he did spark your boy clean out Kauki and showed plenty of courage in doing it...

MTF :kick:

 

Taylor fought much better in the rematch than he did in the first fight. And losing to Hopkins had NOTHING to do with weight. It was about styles, and quite honestly.. a huge gap in skill, as well as class.

Lucky for Kelly.. he wont have that problem with Froch. Carl will be right there for him to hit, and if Taylor can deck Froch... Pavlik can stop him. But Froch packs a good punch too, and Carl has tremendous confidence in himself... so to me its a compelling fight.

If Froch fights Bute first though I think he'll lose. I dont care much for Bute, but he's a very good boxer, and I'd favor him over either Froch or Pavlik.

 

Whilst I agree with most of this, it doesn't detract from the fact that Pavlik isn't as effective above 160 based on the available evidence. Did Taylor really 'fight better' or Pavlik worse? Yes Hopkins is a better fighter in all areas than Kelly but would Pavlik have been so comprehensively done at 160? I'd say not (though he would have still lost widely) but these are subjective questions based on the plain evidence that Pavlik looks very good at 160 and very average above it.

When Froch is undone, and he will be soon enough, it will be by a slick speedster who can undo Froch's piss poor defence (as taylor did) and put him away. Pavlik is what he is: an effective, powerful 1-2 punching MW with concussive power at 160. He is neither particularly slick nor particularly speedy. Nor does he have a particularly brilliant chin (not bad, but not brilliant) and Froch can punch. IMHO Pavlik doesn't really fit the mould of the kind of guy who will give Froch fits.

Agreed that it would be a good fight to watch, though. Froch's fights usually are...

MTF

 

If we're talking the 01 Hopkins at 160 vs Pavlik.... then B-Hop would have stopped Kelly within 10, and the fight would have been even MORE one sided.

I definitely give Froch a chance vs Pavlik, and like I said before... I'd be rooting for Carl. But I'd make Pavlik a slight favorite. I think he'd either outpoint Carl, or stop him late. But the opposite could easily happen as well. Either way it'd be a war!

And I agree that speed, and skill will undo Froch. Thats why I think Bute would outbox him. And I'd pick Kessler, and Dawson to pick him apart.

 

Pavlik is a natural middleweight through and through.

He really is one of those fighters that's suited to one weight, and even a small jump to the next weight class makes a drastic difference. Hatton is another recent fighter that fits the same bill.

Essentially although Kelly looks like a pretty damn big middleweight, he IS a natural middleweight, that's where he looks best, and he certainly doesn't exhibit any symptoms of starving himself to make the weight at 160.

Froch is better than I thought, and he deserves respect for having a lot of heart/guts/determination, and pretty good stamina too.

Because this is at 168, where Pavlik is significantly worse, Froch has a realistic chance, but I should Pavlik should win, he's a better overall fighter, and Froch's power is nothing special.