Apologies if this is so screamingly obvious as to be passe, but I've never heard anyone else mention it and the only times I've brought it up in other places people have contested it: Shane Mosley basically can't fight for shit going forward or if you make him come to you. Am I right?:dunno: EDIT: if just clicking on the thread refer to post 11, I'm not explaining myself well in this OP at all.
He can't (or won't) fight inside. Is that what you mean? A lot of his pot-shotting is moving forward, like his left-hook that he follows with a hold. And his looping right-hand that he follows with a quick grapple. Both of those punches he's done damage with while moving forward. But if you're expecting Mosley to stand in the pocket and trade punches, parrying the incoming while throwing to the body and head, you got the wrong fighter. He'd rather hit you starting from mid-distance, fall in, and apply a quick grapple that he hopes will end with the referee's breaking him up. Mosley is definitely one of those guys who controls the pace of the fight by holding. He'd be a terrible soccer player. He'd have trouble learning not to pick up the ball.
Don't get me wrong, he goes forward allot in fact it's practically his default setting, but he's woefully ineffective at it. Like barely a B level fighter in that department despite all his physical advantages. You're right about his lack of infighting skills too certainly since his lightweight days - that leap and hug style is practically the defining style of our age, he's definitely archetypic of it - but that wild clumsiness comes out of his inability to come forward in a measured, effective way. Every fight I've ever seen him in where the guy has been circumspect and made Shane come to him he's struggled royally, either winning messily purely through his speed or getting outboxed. Conversely every one of his blue chip performances have been against guys who pressured him non-stop and forced him on to the back foot. It's partly because the low held left hand generally never works well coming forward but also because he's reactive and impatient in there, IMO. PS in case this sounds like a slag-Shane-Mosley thread, he's an absolute magician as that back foot counter puncher, he'd be a bastard fight for any come forward lightweight or welterweight in history.:bears:
Yeah. But if you look at his losses it hasn't been his ineffectiveness of coming forward that's cost him the fight. It's been his inability to fight them of his back foot which you claim is his specialty. For example, Forrest backed him up primarily and Mosley essentially had no answer for it except to hug him. And the same was true of Wright. He had success moving backwards against ODH because ODH was so carelessly offensive and unrelenting, having just come off the Trinidad fight. He had some success against Cotto just because he was so much faster than him - not because I'd consider him a brilliant counter-puncher. Against Margarito? I think he has his trainer to thank for that one - or whomever it was who discovered the plaster in Margarito's gloves. And Mosley had his hands full backing up against Vargas in their first fight. He certaintly didn't school him by any stretch of the word. In fact, it was his leaping left hook in the rematch that seemed to separate him from Vargas, and you can bet it would've been followed by the quick-grab had Vargas not found himself on his ass when he was hit by it. The mid-distance hit and quick-grab combination works well for Mosley because he has long and fast arms and puts his whole body into the punch so even if it doesn't land clean, his opponent is stunned enough that he can't escape the quick-grab.
In both the Forrest and Wright fights Shane's strategy was largely to lead though, that's the thing. Or at least he found himself in that position through the tactics of his opponents. You're right that he was pushed back several times in the process of leading, but that's very different to fighting off the back foot as a strategy. Perhaps the distinction of moving forward/backwards isn't the correct one, rather it's more accurate to say that Shane is ineffective when forced (or takes it upon himself) to lead.:dunno:
Maybe. But I still wouldn't say Wright or Forrest "forced" him to lead. I just think they dealth with his countering without much trouble. And in the case of the second Forrest fight, Mosley backed up the entire fight when he wasn't holding Forrest, so it's not like Forrest was laying back, setting traps. I think if I had to generalize Mosley's style I'd say that it's disorganized, relies heavily on holding, and that he loads up a lot. He's at his best when he uses his jab and moves his head, but he doesn't always remember to do that. By the way, it was interesting to watch Mosley/ODH II where the roles were essentially reversed from their first fight in which ODH was the aggressor. In the rematch, Mosley was the aggressor but threw many fewer punches than he or Oscar did in the first fight. I thought he lost that fight pretty obviously. But anyways.
Well the contrast between the first and second Forrest fights backs me up I think. In the second he lead less and succeeded much more, in fact I thought that fight was very close. And again, the Oscar rematch is another good example where the reverse happened and I agree Oscar won. Tell me somebody gets what I'm talking about! I can't be the only one who's noticed this or has this opinion.
I think you're correct in certain cases, against certain opponents, like ODH. But in general, I don't think it's true. In general, Mosley will win a fight if he's stronger than his opponent and is allowed to hold him incessantly. And obviously, he doesn't deal well with pressure like the kind Wright applied against him. So, for example, I wouldn't like his chances against Clottey or Quartey back in the day. I think he chews up guys who don't have a good defense, or who aren't focused on defense because of his hand-speed. But I don't think in general he's better fighting going backwards than he is going forwards. I think there's too many other factors, not the least of which is who the opponent is, to make that generalization.
Shane Mosley can't beat anyone who jabs him which is why I will never ever agree he is a great fighter. A great talent clearly, but I have never seen a so called ATG so completely baffled by a simple straight punch. The guy had to remove his nasal cartilage because he loves eating jabs. Shane's nickname is Sugar but many don't know that it is not for the English use of the word. Sugar is an Algonquin word for "braver warrior who likes stick in the face."
He was completely befuddled moving backwards against Forrest. The only success he had was when he was holding Forrest on the inside. But when he wasn't in the trenches holding Forrest, it was like Tarver/RJJ III.
As I said, the backward/forwards thing was a slight misstatement of what I actually meant to say. I think he struggles badly when he leads, wherever that leading happens in the ring. Wright for instance moved forward but he did so as a counter puncher, largely either firing as Shane reset or baiting Shane into leading with tentative jabs. Forrest again, fought Shane strictly as a counter puncher, though mainly from centre ring. I think Mosley needs to be given something to react to, to counter or he becomes disorganized and wild. And you're right he's still won several fights against lesser guys leading purely through his speed and strength but he's never looked good doing so.
It would appear that PBF can't deal with a good jab either. Even Castillo, who you regard as having been a garbage fighter, had a lot of success jabbing PBF. And ODH, when he remembered to use it, completely controlled PBF with his jab. Pissed me off that he basically lost the fight because he didn't use his jab enough.
By this statement are you saying that was a close fight up until the left hook? I hope not. Anyway, it appears to be true that a simple jab is Mosley's achiles heel. I didn't want to believe it, but I think shortass armed Cotto proved it with how successful he was able to time and stop Mosley in his tracks with it. On top of that Mosley has one of the worse jabs in the game. It's little more than a flick.
No. Mosley was definitely winning the second Vargas fight IMO before knocking him out. But the knock-out was still a huge shock I thought. It's interesting you say that Mosley has a terrible jab because he had great success with it against ODH in their first fight. It's not the powerful stick that ODH or Pavlik has, but the fact that he doubles it up so well went a long way towards avoiding the counter-punch from ODH and in general. I think as an offensive weapon it is lacking. And since I think Mosley's biggest weakness is his defense, I think he should throw his jab much more. It will go a long way towards helping him fight at the pace he wants and his fights will involve a lot less clinching. Pot-shotters, like RJJ and Mosley, will always be susceptible to a stiff jab. If a guy leaves the ground and tries to catch his opponent with a leaping hook there's no better way to discourage it than to stuff him with a jab. And in Mosley's case, moreso than RJJ's, he telegraphs his pot-shots, making him easier to time. Even in Mosley's best performance, his first win over ODH, he did a lot of holding. He eluded a lot of punches with his feet and head movement, but fundamentally, even then, his defense was pretty bad. He needs to learn how to stand his ground and trust his defense and not load up so much. If he did this, he could've beaten Cotto to the punch and won exchanges. He did a little of this against ODH, but like I said, even then his defense was lacking IMHO.
Well it's just like you said earlier. ODLH was mindlessly coming forward trying to erase the criticism of the Tito fight, so of course Shane was going to use his jab then. There is also the possibility that Mosley was a better jabber back then and it's something that has slowly gotten away from him because his jab was shit in the Cotto fight. Still though, there probably isn't an easier punch to correct and make effective than the jab, even at this late stage of Shane's career.
Mosley is strange. He SEEMS to be aggressive, because when he attacks, he does so quickly and aggressively. He's always been pretty explosive. Shit, just look at the Marge fight. He gave marge an explosive beating. But yes, his game does sort of rely on countering. He's actually best when he's not moving forwards or backwards. He's good in the middle of the ring, at mid range, with a bit of lateral movement, picking the guy off, countering, exploiting openings. A good example of Mosley is actually the first Oscar fight. The first half of the fight was even, or perhaps Oscars. That's because Mosley was largely taking the lead, taking the fight to Oscar. Second half of the fight Mosley completely changed tactics, waited for Oscar to lead, started moving laterally, and picked Oscar off centre ring, and basically swept the second half of the fight. Mosley is a sort of aggressive counter puncher. It is funny though, as strong and powerful and explosive as Mosley is, he's not a great in fighter. He's good at mandhandling guys inside (marge for example), but not so great at landing good shots inside.
An 'impatient counter puncher' might be how I would describe him. He's a pure counter puncher by style but a brawler by temperament.
I would describe him as a one hit wonder who beat Oscar one time and lost nearly every time he fought a good fighter including to Oscar in the rematch proving his one hit was a fluke. Please no one bring up the completely shot Vargas either. It's funny that people no longer think he is a one hit wonder because he shockingly whupped Antonio Margarito. The same Margarito 90% of you said sucked. Mr. ATG needed a last second knockout to beat a shot Ricardo Mayorga. I would describe Shane's style as "retarded caveman." He just closes his eyes and fires a flurry. Honestly, I think it is ridiculous how much a simple jab just freezes Shame.
Boxers usually have trouble with jabs. Its a punch that will negate everything. Double is right about Floyd having trouble with jabs himself...same with Ali, same with practically everyone.
silly logic but hardly surprising considering the source. did you say margarito sucked? I recall you're the dullard saying he wouldve whupped duran.
No, Margarito does not suck he is average. I said that the day he beat Cotto and urging people not to go crazy with Margarito love. I felt Mosley would lose because he hadn't shown the ability to walk through fire in years and it did. Why is it silly logic? Why should 90% get to sAY Margarito blows and then shane beats him and suddenly he is great. Also, the Margarito beating Duran thread was an obvious joke making fun of Jaws nuthugging of Duran. I can see your intellect matches your stature.
