khan vs kotelnik

I didn't say he would, I said he could. I don't really see this whole Bradley hype. He's about 50% as good as people are making him out to be. Who has he beaten again? Witter and Holt. Big fucking whoop...

And I didn't say that Khan beats Holt either. I simply pointed out that he was sloppy and Khan needn't be afraid of him.

MTF :dunno:

 

Maidana is an animal? Because he beat Ortiz? This 'animal' couldn't beat Kotelnik FFS...

Dude, you are the person talking out of their ass in this thread. Copiously in fact.

MTF

 

No it isn't.

MTF

 

And like usual you're barely saying anything at all. Perhaps MWS and MTF & myself are just more perceptive than you.....

 

Yeah it is. You just spouted crap without thinking about it.

Start naming this generation of fighters who fit your description and you will find the same number in the 90's, the 80's, and so on.

 

It was a very shrewd move for Khan to go to 140....where the opposition is weaker, and his speed is maximised.

Despite being a long time Khan cynic, I fancied him against Kotelink, but it was a tidier performance than i expected. Matching him up against the other contenders at 140 is tough, but i can say with quite some degree of certainty, that none of them (with the obvious exception of Pacquaio, who doesn't really belong in any division) are capable of beating Kotelink so comprehensively.

What has impressed me is the obvious impact Roach has had on him....a lot of fighters change coaches to revamp their style and approach but wind up reverting to their previous ways with the first punch they take. Khan has made sacrifices and immersed himself into Roach's way and has been willing to listen, have tough sparring etc... he HAD to change his approach and he's now the fighter he always should have been....buzzing, in and out of range...making the most of his speed of hands and feet, and doing his best to keep his achilles chin out of the equation.

I think Khan might become a more glorified Herol Graham (he already has the belt than Graham could never quite grasp)....he's so quick, he'll make very good fighters look ordinary....but one lapse, and he's down and out.

The fight i'd looooove to see would be Khan-Judah....last i heard Zab was moving back down to 140....this would be a cracker....a big risk for Amir, but one that could make him a name Stateside.

 

Zab is too much risk and no reward. But yeah I'd be on the edge of my seat during the first 4 rounds.

 

Amir would beat Zab down. Especially if he boxes like he boxed last Saturday.

 

No I didn't: as always, I speak as I find...

I have been involved in ammy boxing for about fifteen years now. I used to box as a teenager and now I help my two brothers who both box ammy. This means I'm at the local gym about three times a week. Moreover, I see ammy fights about once a fortnight at various places around NE England.

I have no idea what ammy boxing was like in the sixties, mainly because I wasn't even a glint in my old man's eye, but I can tell you for a fact that ammy boxing now is all about the sort of thing Amir Khan typifies perfectly. Ronnie Rowe, the head coach at Birtley Boxing Club in Gateshead (and has been for over forty years) tells me that the way he trains his ammies has changed massively over the last fifteen years because of the way in which they are ponits scored. He refuses, for example, to teach his ammies to body punch because it doesn't score points, though he spends hefty sessions on body work with the pros he trains. He encourages pure athleticism and hand speed in his ammies because that is the simplest and most efficient way to 'score' in ammy fights. He doesn't bother with fundamentals like planting your feet before you throw because you get the same reward for a light scoring shot as you do a heavy shot. Even a knockdown gets you only an extra point, so the incentive to look exclusively for them isn't there.

This is a guy who has been in the game as long as you've probably been alive and he trains guys differently purely based on whether or not they are pro or amateur. Of course, he is probably just 'sprouting crap without even thinking about it'...

MTF ld:

 

Stop making up stories...Who cares what your friend at that shitty gym in Gateshead says. The FACTS speak for themselves. The best fighters in boxing CONSISTENTLY come through the amatuer ranks with some notable exceptions like Pacman, Hopkins and others...Check out the super middleweight tourney; every fighter was a top amatuer. Your theory sounds good but the facts dont back it up.

 

I don't make up stories: unlike sad, internet warriors like yourself, I actually have a life and have actually been inside a boxing gym. Oh, and that 'that shitty gym' regularly produces England international amateurs- Gary Barr being the most recent example of a world class amateur being trained there.

Of course most fighters start in the amateur ranks. The progression to pro is a natural one. The point is that Khan fights like a guy who has taken a successful ammy style and replicated it almost identically into his pro career. That much is abundantly obvious and his success will have a further knock on effect on other amateurs who come through into the pro ranks.

MTF

 

interesting anecdote feebs

 

Unlike Hut, I don't have a morbid hatred of modern amateur boxing. I know a couple of guys who have boxed ammy for years and are very skilled at it in fact. But it is a very different game to the pro life, even though the progression for one to the other is a natural one. Look at James Degale on saturday: he practically admitted after his fight that he had only just started working on body punching with his new training team, and he won an Olympic title.

The training is very different for both, and Khan fights more like an ammy than most. He has very quick hands, is extremely athletic but doesn't sit on his punches that often and his flurries are usually primed towards headhunting (though he has worked on and improved his body punching). Fighting like that will see him win more than he loses, but he'll win few top level bouts by KO.

MTF

 

This is where the talking out of your ass begins. Guys are just moved faster these days so they retain their amatuer styles a little longer...Big fucking deal, you think Amir's going to fight like this when he's 30? Your theory sucks and its bullshit.

 

khan's arm-punch push-away style really is naff.

 

:bears::bears:

Anyone who hasn't noticed a difference in the way prospects fight in the last decade or should start following another sport because they don't have a fucking clue what's going on in a boxing ring. I think to say it's just a move towards athletic pitty pat, in and out speedsters is a tad simplistic though. That's the preference in the UK & US I would say, but it's a different model in the eastern block countries. The common denominators no matter the ostensible style are A) less emphasis on in fighting and body punching for the reasons you give, B) less emphasis on actually hurting guys or picking out quality shots and more on volume C) less emphasis on defensive subtlety & more on just covering up since it's more important to be SEEN to avoid the shot than to actually avoid it.

 

I'll bet you any amount of your choosing that Khan is nowhere near a boxing ring by the time he is 30...

MTF

 

Yeah it sounds good...too bad its bullshit. Trainers have always trained amatuers the same. Its another sport and always has been. For him to claim the amatuer program is breeding "new" kinds of fighter is ridiculous.

 

So you're suggesting a situation whereby the scoring system has RADICALLY changed (a change also roughly coinciding with head gear and heavier gloves) but the coaches & fighters have made NO adjustments to that in the 20 years since? A situation where you have guys training 4, 5 years for the Olympics, with government funding, national centers and agencies sticking their bib in and nobody is making tactical adjustments to the radical change in the scoring system?:doh:

I think you should just stop posting on this subject to be honest, mate.

 

Anyone who hasn't noticed a difference in the way prospects fight in the last decade

list of some amatuer standouts in last decade with "pitty pat" styles

Miguel Cotto
Kelly Pavlik
Nonito Donaire
Vic Darchinyan
Tomasz Adamek
David Haye
Alexander Povetkin
Chris Arreola
Antonio Tarver
Jean Pascal
Tavoris Cloud
Jeff Lacy
James Kirkland
Andre Berto
Timothy Bradley
Lamont Peterson
Rocky Juarez
Juan Manuel Lopez

I think to say it's just a move towards athletic pitty pat, in and out speedsters is a tad simplistic though.

Thats exactly what you said and thats why I said your talking shit and you are. Your just a clown who's latched on to a good sounding "theory", only problem is the facts dispute it. Stop being a delusional prick and admit your wrong.

 

Honestly, you talk absolute bollocks. If you can't see how a sport which radically changed it's scoring system might not have also resulted in a change in methods and training, then you are nuts. Moreover, you have no practical experience of any of what you are talking about, instead choosing to dismiss as 'bullshit' the opinion of someone who has been involved in amateur boxing since he was 13.

Just leave it alone...

MTF

 

You are one dense cunt...Of course there will be tactical changes in trying to win the fights.....but those changes are not radically changing the pro game as you claim. When a fighter moves to the pro's he will progress to more pro style. Some guys moreso than other obviously.

So how do you explain the fighters I mentioned above?...are they some kind of aberations? are they exceptions to your "rule"?

 

Thanks, Barristan. It's nice not to have to do this alone.

I'll admit there has been changes in training because Cubans have spread out all over the globe and taught their style, the same one they've had ad infinitum, to others like the Chinese.

But, there is more than one way to win in the ams, as the soviet bloc countries have proven over and over with a purely opposite approach.

If your beloved trainer has just now started to adapt, then blame him, not the scoring system that has been around since the late 80's. And it looks like the British did adapt pretty well or have at least had better boxers recently based upon their am success.

Meanwhile, it's the Americans who bitch and moan about the ams and how it is not like the pros. Of course, coincidentally the Americans haven't been doing as well in the pros, either. hmmm.

And body shots do score, btw. And they score often so long as they are clean (which isn't all that easy to accomplish).

I say this acknowledging that the 2008 olympics sucked regarding scoring. It wasn't like the 2007 world ams or anything before. It just out and out sucked and points weren't given. But the 2008 olys were DIFFERENT than typical.

 

See now your changing it up ....First the new scoring system is breediing a new type of fighter that is changing the lanscape of the sport now the new scoring system is just resulted in a change in methods and training...Glad to see you'v toned down your statements. Let's see if HutHut rolls back his shrill rantings too.

 

He (and I) are talkiing mainly about BRITISH fighters here. The set up is such that amateur success is being pursued and funded at high cost. That means that up and coming UK fighters are bringing an ammy style to the professional game:

Nathan Cleaverly: probably the best UK prospect, almost no KO power.

Darren Barker: likely future world contender: about 6 KO's in 20 fights

Amir Khan: Apparently threw 1000 punches v Kotelnik: never had him down or particularly hurt.

James De Gale: Won Olympic Gold, just being told NOW how to throw body punches.

And of course, the daddy of them all:

Joe Calzaghe: won all his biggest fight by decision using ultra quick hands and half turned punches. Nicknamed 'Calslappy' by his detractors. Stellar amateur pedegree.

Do you see a pattern emerging here?

MTF

 

I tell you what, decipher this nonsense for me and I'll respond to this part of the post. You just took up a point I made, agreed with it then in the same sentence used it to suggest I'm talking shite. You clearly didn't even read the rest of my post.

And as for the list of guys you gave me. Firstly, there aren't many olympians there and of the ones who are, I don't see any who jump out as refuting what I'm talking about.:dunno: Again, I don't think fighters world wide are becoming pitty pat speedsters, I think that's ONE adaptation of many to the amateur scoring system, all of which have the common features I talked about in the post you misquoted. And of course allot of fighters still come through who's styles weren't particularly adapted to the amateur ranks.

Look Barristan the bottom line is amateur fighters have changed their tactics in the last 20 years to accommodate the scoring system of their sport. That much isn't even up for fucking debate, it's axiomatic because it couldn't be otherwise. I think this is gradually having an effect on the style of guys in the pro ranks (again I ask, how could it be otherwise?). You don't. Let's leave it at that.

 

How did it feel to be bitch smacked by the great Barristan?

 

Don't want to get involved in the name calling and stuff but just wanna say it's a bit unfair to criticise Khan for not hurting or knocking down Kotelnik as no one else has done so either, and none of you expected him to do so pre-fight.

 

Oh my...you nailed it. I doubt either will have a coherent answer to ANY of your points. Your a gentleman and a scholar.

 

Direct me to exactly when and where this happened and I'll tell you. That last post you directed at me was honestly one of the most unintelligible & inane I've ever responded to. In fact every argument you've put forward has been asinine. Apart from 'you're talking shite, you're talking shite, you're talking shite' of course. :bears: That was great stuff.