Roy Jones Jr or Sugar Ray Leonard

If someone way 135lbs and someone ways 175lbs, at that weight then yes. But Reed knows that it isn't only how hard you hit, but where they hit you. Now if you look at Montell's record, you will see many of the guys he KO'd were actually welterweights or middleweights. The guy wasn't really a KO artist Reed. If you look at Duran's KOs you will see that he was knocking out middleweight, super middleweights and even a light heavyweight. So to think Duran couldn't crack the same if not harder than Montell is almost silly ::

Cupey

 

Well I've spoken to Freddie Roach and other people who trained Toney for both his fight with Ruiz and for his fight with Jones. In both camps they had real problems with Toney's training and I felt their information was credible. There are no excuses in the ring, but the fact that Toney didn't train was probably a fact too.

Bernard was green and I don't see him having the same style he did in those days. I was big on Bernard, but both men weren't at their peak. Still Bernard was green. I never like the matchup between Hopkins vs. Jones. Still think Hopkins loses. But the fight took place when they were both up and coming fighters.

Cupey

 

I was going to say. I never noticed a marked change in RJJ's style following the McClellan tradgedy. I think he was always a pretty cautious fighter who was as much defensive as he was offensive.

However, I think when it comes to RJJ's competition, especially later in his career, I think it was more a case of the public taking RJJ's greatness for granted than anything to do with McClellan.

Basically, RJJ, by the time he moved to 175 and beat Virgil Hill, found himself with a lot to lose and very little to gain. Afterall, seemingly no matter who he fought, the world and even other fighters were convinced that RJJ was the best fighter in the world. Every fight for him was a chance to lose his status as the world's greatest fighter, and nothing to gain except money. Well guess what? The public, and the stupid manner in which HBO funds fights, meant that RJJ could make more money in many cases, and just as much in all cases, fighting cans as he could fighting the best fighters out there.

Sadly, PBF finds himself in the same position. Afterall, he's managed to reenter the P4P ranking at no. 2 with a win over a featherweight, and prior to that, somehow, retained his status as the P4P best fighter in the world, competing at welterweight, without fighting even one of the best fighters in that division. And he "competed" as a welterweight for several years.

And like RJJ, PBF finds himself with a lot to lose and nothing to gain by taking on top competition. Instead, he's found, he can "wow" idiot fans and HBO with catch-weight fights (in which he doesn't even bother to make the contracted weight), make all the money he can expect to make, and stand virtually no chance of losing as long as he trains.

And you can't even claim that PBF doesn't care about his legacy because he's managed to fool enough people that his victories over the likes of ODH or JMM are the stuff of all-time greats, when it's clear to anyone paying attention that it's contrived malarky, demonstrating almost a disdain, certainly a lack of respect, for his fans and the public. And why should he respect a public that mischaracterizes and is dupped by a "win" over a featherweight?

Because of the systemic problems in boxing, the only fighters willing to fight the very best are those who have a tremendous belief in their ability to win - these are the fighters who have never spent an evening lulling over in their minds what it would be like if they lost. They're simply convinced they cannot. This includes fighters like Pacquiao, Mosley, and of course, JMM, whose belief in himself inspired him to move up two weight classes, from a weight class he'd only fought 3 times in, to face PBF.

The exception to the above is fighters who haven't yet proven themselves. Fighters who are fighting for the chance to have an HBO contract, or to become a PPV attraction. PBF was among this group at one point (Corrales, Chavez, Castillo, Hernandez), so too was RJJ (Toney, Hopkins, although his list of opponents even in his earlier days leaves something to be desired).

Then, having proven himself (PBF), the systemic problems created by a misguided business model on the part of HBO, uneducated boxing fans, and a sensationalist media, are imposed and there we have it: the "best fighter in the world and he doesn't even have to prove it."

RJJ's unwillingness to fight the best opponents had nothing to do with Gerald McClellan. That much is becomes obvious now, when RJJ once again finds himself in the position of having to prove himself, and as a result is taking on the likes of Calzaghe and possibly Hopkins.

 

Muzse Spoke to Roach Too & he NEVER Said that about Toney...In Fact, Muzse Pretty CLEARLY Discovered that Roach HATES Roy Jones Probably MORE than YOU Do::...

So Sorry, Roach ISn'T a "Credible" Source on the Matter...& Again, if Bernard was "Green" then Duran was a "Blown Up Lightweight"....



REED:hammert:

 

Jones would have been 24, Bernard 28.

Jones turned pro in 89, Bernard in 88

Jones had 21 fights, Bernard had 23 fights.

Either they were both green or neither was.

 

Roy Jones was an olympic boxer, Hopkins was not
Hopkins went to jail at 17, during his amateur career, and did 5 years. Roy did not

Big facts to prove that although their records were similar Roy had the advantage when they met.

Cupey

 

Roach absolutely hates Roy. However talk to Toney's conditioning coach yourself and then make up your own mind. Sound reasonable?

I've already explained above why Bernard was "Green" compared to Roy

Again, my objective here is not to diminish Roy's career. Simply stating why Leonard is higher than Roy. Roy's career has been done to the point it's old.

Cupey

 

Hopkins was "green" because he spent 5 years of his amateur career in prison?? :dunno: thats it? thats why he is "green" during the Jones fight....

 

Amateur records mean almost nothing in the pros. Are you going to penalise a boxer who takes up the sport at 12 because his opponent took it up at 17? Why not? That's 5 whole years of experience he missed out on.

Jail I'll give you but Hopkins had been a pro longer and had more pro fights. He wasn't green. That he got better with age is no excuse because Roy got better after their fight also.

Bernard wasn't green. There's certainly nothing based in fact to suggest he was anyway. It's just clung to by people who want to diminish that win for Roy.

If Hop had been beaten by Tito and retired, this green stuff would never be brought up. It's very simple: If Bernard is green at that stage of his career then so is Jones.

 

didn't Hopkins get a gift against some guy called Mercado a couple years after Roy beat him
yeh...he wasn't green at all...it's the same Hopkins as in '98:atu:



fighters mature differently, and they age differently...dunno if you foolios knew that....or how about we say that Roy is still be at the level Hopkins is at right now because they've both been pro the same length of time

 

it's the other way around. mercardo got a gift draw vs. hopkins. hopkins fucked him up badly in the rematch.

 

There's alot of intangibles to that fight in Ecuador, it's too easy to look at the result alone and say because Hopkins drew that it was proof he was green. Alot of people thought he won that fight in a very hostile atmosphere at high altitude. Although the KD's were legit, Mercado didn't do much else.

 

It Really HELPS if U Actually KNOW what the Fuck U're Talking about, Dude...AFTER Getting Dropped TWICE, Bernard STILL GOT A DRAW IN MERCADO's HOMETOWN...WHENEVER U Get a Draw in Somebody Else's Hometown, that Means U WON the Fight Sooooooo CLEARLY that they COULDN'T DARE Give U a LOSS, Which they Didn't....



REED:hammert:

 

sure there are alot of excuses to be made if you're in the excuse making game

close fight...Hopkins eeked past Mercado, therefore a year before the fight he was even greener

 

Don't Mind him, he NEVER Saw the Fight NOR Does he Know the Back Story To it...He Merely BOXREC'd Bernard's Resume, Saw the Mercado Draw Listed & Ran w/It...

DUH!!!....

REED:atu:

 

agREED...

Either BOTH were "Green" or NEITHER were "Green"...



REED:hammert:

 

First, I've already said that both men were in their pro career about the same level. To completely dismiss an amateur career is a Roy Jones groupie trying to diminish it's value. Ask any trainer and he'll tell you that having a solid amateur career is a big plus compared to someone who didn't have it. That's 5 years experience over Hopkins, you can't hide that. Having an amateur career doesn't guarantee you success, that I'll give you. But put two fighters with similar potential together and the man with the most experience will probably win. That's what happened, IMO, when they met. But styles makes fights and even today I would make Roy the favorite. However, Bernard was green in comparison to Roy.

Cupey

 

Wow, Reed agreed. What a surprise. :shit:

Cupey

 

So I'm a Roy Jones groupie because I think they were both green? :notallthere:

There's many cases of the reverse being true about amateur careers and that is why they have almost no meaning in the pros.

By that rationale, you have to penalise anyone that takes up the sport before their competitor. Sorry, but I don't buy into that and I'm not 'hiding' anything. I haven't in anyway tried to make Bernard look bad, I've said that both guys were at similar stages in their PRO careers.

That really can't be argued. For every guy with a 100+ fight amateur career, there's a guy that had less then 50. When they meet in the pros, amateur fights mean shit. It's a completely different game. Level of pro comp matters not what you did while wearing headgear.

 

Is the statement that unreasonable?

 

If REED Isn't Mistaken, Bernard had OVER 100 Ammy Fights Himself...Roy had National Golden Glove & Olympic Experience Over Bernard, but in Terms of ACTUAL AMMY BOUTS, the Difference ISN'T That Much...& Let's Not Pretend that Bernard DIDN'T Box in Prison, Because he Did...It's NOT like he just Sat on his Ass for 5 Years...



REED:shit:

 

Sugar Shane had MORE Ammy Fights than Vernon Forrest, yet Forrest NEVER LOST to Shane, in the Ammy's OR Pro's...



REED:hammert:

 

Right Reed, he was in great shape in prison training with Angelo Dundee, Archie Moore, and some other greats. :shit: If he was doing fine in jail why would he come out taking his first fight as a cruiserweight. His amateur fights came before jail.

You are digging your grave son. Stop while you are ahead.

cupey

 

REED Isn't Equating Prison Boxing w/World Class Ammy Boxing, but YOU'RE Making it Seem as if Bernard just Sat on his Ass while Locked Up...He was TRAINING & MORE Importantly, he WASN'T Drinking OR Drugging...& He Weighed BARELY Over the Lightheavy Limit for that Crusierweight Fight, Dude...He WASN'T Even 180, so Quit while YOU'RE Behind...




REED:hammert:

 

14.5 lbs more than he weighed his entire career. He LOST the fight. And it wasn't til almost 2-years later before he returned to the ring. Those years in prison did wonders for his career :notallthere:

I give up. Jones nut huggers are clueless.

Cupey

 

That's right. Easier to insult then concede that in this case, we might have a point.

What happened to the times when you could have a decent back and forth on these boards? Always with the nuthugger/hater shit. It's really depressing that this is what we've been reduced to.

Serves me right for trying to actually have a civil debate on this board. I won't bother attempting that again.

 

so you agree that both are at the same level right now then, and have been for the past 5 years? their pro careers have been going for as long, afterall..only makes sense by your logic :hammert:

 

yeh...it's such a mysterious fight that no one has seen :atu: being on youtube and all

back story...you mean excuse story, the sort of excuses that you won't allowed James Toney to have with his fight against Jones


Hopkins simply wasn't at the same elite level yet.......eeking past Mercado proved it :cheer:

 

Sugar Ray was better prime for prime because his level of competition was better so he PROVED himself more against the best. I guess if we're just talking about hand speed, defense, combo's etc. then who knows. Jones DESERVES all the credit in the world for beating Toney and Hopkins, not sure how anyone would try and tell us otherwise. I don't care if Toney wasn't in shape blah blah blah, he's never in shape and still a good fighter and I won't blame a winner because of someone else's performance. Hopkins was 23-1 or something like that and it was a good matchup and Jone's won period! There is always an excuse in every fight but that's usually just made up by a disgruntled fan.

 

How can anyone say that a fighter's amateur experience doesn't help him?