The Welterweight Division is DEAD.

You heard me, dead. Doesn't Exist. WHY? Well, read on.....

You see, people rag on the heavyweights- too many pale riders, too many foreigners {what part of "World" Champion dont they get}, not enough rapists/scandal/wife-beaters etc. In short too many things for your post-modern latte drinking Americano to be uncomfortable about. Too many of the things he was raised to dislike. Too many golden smiles need wiping off too many golden faces. The complaint is that too many old fat dudes are fighting for the title. Well, back in 1994, too many old fat dudes were fighting for the title..and winning it too. But that was OK. Mocha Latte George was one of theirs. He reminded Americans of when times were good and gas cost around $20 a gallon and when the heavyweight division featured title fights in boxing hotspots such as Caracas, Nassau, Democratic Republic Of Cattle-Prod, etc. Today, those fights take place in disgustingly obscure locations like Switzerland, Moscow, London, and Las Vegas and New York. Its not like old times. Old times saw glamour events like the de-braining of Ali with the cowbell in the Bahamas, the glory of Jimmy Young, apparitions in dressing rooms, the pugilistica dementia of Quarry. Rare times, rare times.

Welterweight. 147. Can you even find it? I rang up 1-4-7 the other day and I got directed to two different boroughs- the Borough of Catchweight and the Borough of 145. They are thinking of building a bridge between these boros. . It links the Boro's of Balco, Catchweight and 145 together. HBO put the money up. It is was supposed to be like old times, when Tito Trinidad got a deserved decision in the thrilling fight of the Century against De La Hoya.

Instead, we got us some catch-fights, steroid freaks, plastered hands, a rake of champions with the longevity of your average mayfly, a cherry picking retiree and a whole lot more besides.

10 years of shite. 10 years of not knowing who the man was at 147. 10 years since a proper welterweight division ended with a sham of a decision and the wrong man getting the wrong decisions for the right reasons.

Tito beats Oscar. Oscar loses to Shane. Shane loses to Forrest. Forrest loses to Mayorga, who loses to Stinks, who loses to a 140lb Judah who had lost to Tszyu who lost to Hatton who shows up at 147 a few years later and beats Collazo but probably lost and then Judah loses to Bumdomir who beats Gatti who was never really a welterweight and who was never really a lightwelter unless you are asking Floyd who beats Bumdomir and then fights the aforementioned Hatton who took the fight at Welter even though he was a lightwelter and speaking of lightwelter oh lookey here its Miguel Cotto who gets pounded to within an ace of defeat by Torres before becoming the man at 147 and defending against Shane who loses to Cotto who loses to Margarito who probably cheated and then loses to Shane who definitely cheated and Mayweather fought none of them because he was in retirement because he didnt get enough respect for not fighting Williams Cotto Mosley PacMan but he did fight Oscar at 154 who then killed himself to make 147 to fight PacMan who in turn beat Hatton who could next fight JMM who in turn just lost to Mayweather at a weight none of us are sure of because Floyd paid them all off with money that he got from fighting Oscar who lost to Shane who beat Mayorga who lost to Judah who lost to Mayweather who will now fight Pacman to determine who is the man at 147 even though Pacman isnt a 147lbr because he never fought Cotto at 147 he made him sign at 145 which Floyd was supposed to fight JMM at but he weighed 147 and maybe 160 by fight-time but him and PacMan are fighting for the Welterweight title at an undisclosed weight.

Yeah, sure, the heavyweight division is fucked. OK.

 

:laughing:

MTF

 

Febblers- I am deadly serious.:warning::crafty:

Name the welterweight champ?

Manny Pac? Had his last two fights at 145 and 140.

Floyd? Had a 20lb weight advantage over his last opponent who had never fought at welter before?

Shane Mosley? Balco Boy. Margarito was never the champ. Which means it must be Manny Pac. But he never fought at 147 when he beat Cotto.

Damn I am confused.

 

The WORST Thing about this "Pale Rider" Rant is that 9 Times Out of 10 it's WHITE Fans/Writers/Commentators/Trainers/etc. Doing the COMPLAINING...So SPARE REED your PATHETIC Attempt @ Suggesting it's a RACIAL Issue, Dude...The Heavyweight Division is ITS' OWNfuckingWORST ENEMY...

& NOW, as Only Ortho Would even DARE To Do, the Welterweight Division is Being THROWN Under the Bus????..."Steroid Freaks"???...."Balco Boy"???....Uuuuuuh, U Ever Heard of the KLITSCHKO's, Homey???...Those Motherfuckers BLEED & PERSPIRE Steroids...

R YOU Saying that the Heavyweight Division is N ANY Way BETTER than the Welterweight Division???...If So, Go Wipe the FECES from your Teeth, Cause U're TALKING SHIT....



REED:shit:

 

Oh dear. I thought you might be rational. Did you not read the bit where i said "post modern Americano"....thats Katz, Borges etc. You dont sound like a latte mocha post-modern Americano. They do. Wally Matthews. Lou DiGumbah. Irish knows this.

You have reverted to form. The old, "Wlad had something on his gloves when he fought Byrd" routine. Remember that? Remember that? That was actually official, for a while.

I thought the world had moved on, progressed, apparently not. If you think the Klitschos are using illicit substances, you better provide some proof.
The heavyweight division is supposedly replete with fat old contenders. When George came back, it was replete with a fat old champion. Halcyon days, went the cry!

Mosley has been irrevocably linked with Junk. Roy Jones, say his opponents {whom Jones did not sue} failed a drugs test. Said opponent may have failed it too, but that makes it even worse!

Margarito, like the unfortunate Sosa, must now have previous performances questioned. Did he illegally wrap the night he bust up Cotto?

Mosley vs Margacheato. Hell of a way to decide the divisions top man. Its boxings equivalent of Tiger Woods vs The 1919 BlackSox. One gang of cheats vs the other. Oh yeah! But its on HBO...so we dont go there. Keepin' it Real, with the HomeBoyzOnly. Toney, another cheat, was right.

When Sanders met Vitali, the official line over at Maxboxing was that their fight would have been barely worthy of an undercard slot at some old shitty arena like the Blue Horizon or something. Thats their reward for 8 rounds of blood and guts, powershots and busted cheekbones. How you can say the division is its "own worst enemy" is beyond me. It did well in those sold out fights. Lewis vs Vitali. Vitali vs Johnson. Vitali vs Sanders. Vlad vs Peter. No weight shennanigans. No $600,000 per pound, Manuel. No BS. You weigh what you weigh and we get it on.

Yet the welterweight division has great fights. So great that they dont even happen at welterweight.

 

So U're Tellling REED that Vitali Klitschko has Never EVER Tested POSITIVE for STEROIDS???...


REED::

 

P4P #1 vs P4P #2 at 147 but the division is dead:laughing::laughing::laughing:

 

Not steroids, and not as a professional. He said he used roids to heal an injury and as such cannot even be said to have used "performance enhancers"- which is exactly what Shane used. But Vitali never tested positive for them. He instead tested positive for a "prohibited substance". Thats kind of vague.

He failed a test conducted under the more stringent and broadly defined Amateur programme conducted by his own ABA authorities.

It wasn't steroids he tested positive for- even though Katz {post Modern latte Americano} said it was.

It was a diuretic {weight loss, water loss} product. Maybe it was all that "RippedFuel"::

And even at that, he is but one of the Klitschkos.

You will have to do better than that Reed. You said they "bleed and perspire" steroids. Dragging up an amateur infraction from 20 years ago aint cutting it.

Not when we got Balco vs Plaster of Paris only 1 year ago.

 

Thats right.

Show me the lineage over the last 10 years???

That title has been bandied about waaaay more than at heavyweight.

How can it be the defining fight at 147 without Mosley and Margacheato?

And how many fights has Pac had at `147?

The fight which categorically eliminated the ill-fated Cotto took place at 145, no?

More pic'and'mix here than a fucking WalMart candy department.

I never questioned the validity of the fight- it is a great great fight. But it aint the Welterweight division. Who was the last Welter that Floyd fought?

 

If a Guy HAS Been Linked to Steroids, there's NOfuckingREASON to Believe he Isn't STILL Linked to It...U Know, just as YOU'RE PRESUMING an Awful Lot about the Likes of Sugar Shane Mosley & Others???...Well, 2 Can PLAY the Same Game, Homey...

It AIN'T No Fun when the RABBIT's Got the Gun, Is It::...

Fuuuuuurthermore, the Klit's have HISTORICALLY Done EVERYTHING Together, INCLUDING Pose for NUDE, SUGGESTIVE Photo's, yet U Expect REED & Others to HONESTLY Believe that Wlad WOULDN'T Indulge in the SAME Practice that Vitali ADMITS TO???...

How CONVENIENT that U ACCEPT Vitali's Explanation while DISMISSING Any Others...Bottom Line, NO Klit Licker Should EVER Play the "Steroid Card"....



REED:shit:

 

You dont have a gun,rabbit.

You are suggesting a "practise" on the behalf of Vitali, stemming from his making one {non-investigative} claim of injury-related {not performance related} use of a substance. You not only fail to distinguish between a one-off use for medical purposes and prolonged use for performance-enhancing, but you subsequently attempt to draw another fighter {his brother} into the same net, purely by association. Weak.

Reed, you said they "Bleed and Perspire" steroids. Come up with the proof, or at least some evidence of categorical prolonged, continued use of performance-enhancing products and then we can talk.

Mosley himself admitted using the gear. What he claimed ignorance of was the content. Maybe that is true. But it does not obfuscate the fact that the last significant fight at Welter was between a self-confessed user of the junk and a guy who got caught with illegal wraps.

Thats the bottom line.

 

You kind of missed the point of the thread.

The thread is saying (and in creative manner I might add, although looking things from a narrow standpoint) that the criticizm heavyweight has received is in many ways unfair and by choosing your stand carefully you can make any division sound good or bad

 

The next great welterweight fight will feature two guys who started off at much lower divisions. And it might not even be at Welterweight. Welcome to the Welterweight division, where up is down and down is up, and $600,000 can buy a man a lot of time and effort.

 

Precisely.

Some of the fights between Hatton, Pac, Mayweather, etc, have been outstanding.

But they are riddled with intrigue and controversy from poor refereeing, to osubstance abuse, to infringement of the rules of the MoQ, to outright financial bullying by fighters of those in a weaker financial position. The line between welterweight and the surrounding divisions has never been as vague and ill-defined as it is now.

At heavyweight, all is far from perfect. But there are dominant figures, who fight often and who fight hard, and there is some degree, not perfect, but some degree of accountability.

 

No, what's "Weak" is ASSuming & WHOLE HEARTEDLY ACCEPTING Vitali's "One-Off" ADMISSION...Since U're Soooo WILLINGLY ASSuming the Absolute WORST about Others, it's Awfully HYPOCRITICAL To Take the FANBOY Approach w/Vitali...U're VEHEMENTLY Targeting 1 Entity, yet MEEKLY Turning AWAY from a SIMILAR Instance....

WHY was Vitali THROWN OFF of the Ukranian Team just PRIOR to the Olympics???...Moreso, the Olympics Offer THE Most STRINGENT Testing Procedures of ANY Sports Outfit...Certainly, Professional Boxing ISN'T On Par in that Regard or Even Close...Point Being, it's EASIER to Get Away w/Roid Use in the PROS than it is as an Ammy...

REED HAS "Come Up w/Proof"...MORE than Enough to SHIT on this SILLY Ass Thread, for Sure...Not Only Does the "Rabbit" Have the Gun, but he Shot HOLES Thru YOUR Premise, Mr. Hunter...

Sincerely YOURS,

Floyd Patterson:hammert:

 

.

Thats just it. The Amateurs offer stringent testing. I already stated that, thou repetitive one. So it was all the more likely that innocent use of healing aid would show up under the very vague and very general heading of "prohibited substance". Just how you parlay and translated that into the "bleeding and perspiring" of steroids is quite beyond me.

Frans Botha failed a similar test as a professional- which he attributed to using similair products to heal an old arm injury. But Botha was never a threat to anyone so it never really got mentioned, save to strip him of a title.

Did the heavyweight division collapse then? Nope. Of course, Lewis and Holyfield {a man who perspired steroids if ever there was one} ruled the roost back then, so it was all good. No death at Heavyweight that year.

Again, you seem loathe to read my posts. I already said that I attached importance to both aspects of Mosleys admission- his admission that he {a} took steroids and {b} took them in ignorance of their true nature. I attach only physical and not mental guilt to his actions. Once again, reed what you want.:nono:

Furthermore, if avoiding testing pos for steroids was so easy, then why did James Toney, Roy Jones and Shane Mosley all, one way or the other, fail tests? {Mosley admitted use, thus the mootness of his not failing a test}

You have shot holes in nothing. Shane and Margacheato, however, have shot holes in a lot.

Why has the upcoming "Welterweight" bout btw FMWJ and MP attracted a discussion about steroids?

 

Lennox Lewis retired in 2003/2004.

Since then, how many times have the 4 heavyweight titles changed hands?

Oscar DLH vs Tito was 10 years ago. Since then, how many times have the 4 Welterweight titles changed hands.

Add them up. There is a phenomenal amount of changing for a division which has supposedly been bereft of the ills of the heavyweight division. The absence of a dominant, natural welterweight champ, the refusal of its better champions to make all the big fights they could, and the ease with which inferior midget talent has polluted the gene poll by crossing over from 140 make me very dubious about 147 indeed.

 

Who was the last welterweight champeen who made his professional debut at welterweight?

dont quote me on this :laughing: but I think it might be Tito. Or maybe it is Kermit Cintron, cos he was hella champeen.:atu:

 

10 years? 147 had a clear champion from Mosley/Forrest 1 until Floyd retired.

 

I don't think it is a racial issue. Americans are stupidly Patriotic. Patriotism is like another religion on top of the ghastly Christian religion. It isn't just dumb Americans either. HBO promoted Chris aRREOLA as a legtimate contender::::

I am one of the few Americans, if not the only one on the board, who doesn't give a shit were someone is from. Boxing is an international sport and people need to grow up. If an American beats a German, he is not beating Germany and vice versa.

Frankly, for me it works only negatively. I am embarrassed that Floyd Mayweather, Cory Stinks, Kevin Johnson, Andre Direll, Evander Holyfield, Bernard Hopkins are Americans.

Well, that isn't always true, I will never cheer for a French or French Canadian fighter ever. Usually, I don't care where someone is from unless they are associated with France in anyway.

 

It did? Name them.:shit:

How can it have "a" clear champion when there was more than 1 clear champion?:nono:

Shit...heavyweight has had clear champeens since Lewis retired. Irrespective of the fact that the good folk at Maxboxing did their absolute utmost to deny that Vitali-Sanders was for the linear/lineal championship.

The belts, and the title, got bandied around from billy to jack, until we ended up where we are today, with the welterweight title residing somwhere between 140, 145 and 147, and opponents coming from afar a field as 135, who sign for a fight at 145 and end up fighting an opponent who has not bothered to make the weight.

Its institutionalized bullying of impecunious fighters who are not in a position to turn down the last minute demands of house-backed guys like Mayweather. Mayweather knew Marquez could not afford to not take the fight, and so he tacked on more added extras than was fair. Oh sure, Marquez got "paid"....if you think that exposing himself to a brutal weight disadvantage was worth what Marquez got, how do you all feel as fans knowing that the dead-letter fight got a bit more dead-letter by fight night?

Savage.

 

It is more nationalism than it is Racial. I never said it was racial. Reed dragged the conversation down to that level, as it better served his argument. I merely contended, successfully I believe, that the Klitschkos were looked down upon by Americans of the post-modern kind.

 

I agree on all counts. I understand hating Wlad. Wlad is awful to watch and he is a pussy. He is just a talented pussy. How anyone hates Vitali is beyond me. He looks ugly, but last night was one of the few fights he has had that I wasn't entertained by. Vitali is one of the most dominant champions and that is a fact. Here is a little secret, knockouts prove dominance. Lennox Lewis went 12 with several peoplehe ought not have. If Vitali were from New York, there would be statues of him at airports.

 

Precisely. AgREED on all counts, though, in true TeddyGlobe style, I will find a way to entertain myself during "slow" fights....like studying how Vitali tried to adapt to the way Johnson was fighting.

Wlad in fairness used to be exciting. And he has not been stretched by one punch like Lewis was at the peak of Lewis career. But that, of course, is not the point.

The point is that 147 has become a vaguely defined area, inhabited by cheats and bullies, with the title being bandied about like a $2 whore while all the world declares its brilliance.

 

Oh, oh, here weeeeee gooooooooo


"Pacman Success Raises Steeee-Roid Questions"

From non other than Wally Matthews. I guess he gave up waiting for Klitschko to come up short.

http://www.newsday.com/columnists/w...success-may-raise-steroid-questions-1.1593060

So..........how much worse can it get for the multitude of divisions that is 147.....

 

Surprised nobody bothered to reply to this. Anything over 140 up until 147 is a Wleterweight fight. Not sure how 145 isn't a WW fight. :nono:

 

This is by far one of the dumbest threads Ive ever read.

 

Nice try. Welterweight-Catchweight. A supremely technical lawyer effort which I myself would be proud of. It doesnt wash because the division traditionally has had its welters weigh in as close to, but not over, the 147. In this modern setting, the weight is not the only issue, it is the dictating of the weight- who it is dicated to, what it is dicated as, and the last minute changing of the rules by more powerful {politically speaking} fighters.

For instance, it used be that fightersr had 24 hours only to put on weight over the 147. Now, certain fighters dont even make the agreed weight, they just put their hands in their pockets. If nothing else, its dangerous. And it isn't fucking welters as I know it.

I guess catchweight fights at 202, 204lb also illuminate the heavyweight division. Not quite.
And, back in the day, fights at 190+ were never advertised as heavyweight fights.

 

I think Reed wanted to say that, but got caught up in a no-win argument ove steroids and plaster of paris.

 

No win? This argument was over when you said the heavyweight division is better than the welterweight division.

You're right....no win.