The Welterweight Division is DEAD.

Go back and REED it again.

 

About the Klitschkos juicing? In the boxing community, thats pretty much considered a fact.

 

Okay. So that is plural. Now go and show me proof, and if you cannot find proof, then anecdotal evidence at the very least, that both brothers are taking performance enhancing substances that are barred by the pertinent bodies.

 

There's no nice try the fight was a WW title fight fought over 140 pounds. You can dispute it all you want but those are the facts. Cotto had come into WW fights under 147 before it wasn't the first time.

 

Welterweight Division stipulates a limit of 147 which the vast/gross preponderance of all fighters {especially bona fide welterweights} attempt to reach but not exceed when weighing in for welterweight fights, espesh. title fights.

Thats the tradition of the welterweight division and you can try and wriggle out of it any way you wish after that.

Even at that, your attempt barely addresses one of the many issues I raised.

Both Margarito and Mosley, whilst honouring the traditional limit and weighing in accordingly, now have affirmed records as cheats.

 

Yeah. Let me run off and chase the klitschkos around with a cup. :notallthere:

Do you know how easy it is to beat the piss test in boxing?

 

Obviously not so easy that Mosley got done off non-piss related testing.

And Toney and Jones gone "done" off piss tests.

So......no matter what way you look at it, you can get done by your piss or by a trail of paper stemming from your activities.

Consider, if you will, the case of one Evan Fields.

Such a pity you have gone from "widely accepted in the boxing community" to a lame excuse like "let me chase the Klitschkos with a cup".

yes, it is widely accepted in the boxing community, if a bunch of crippled morons and insecure dickheads who work for the New York Daily Post constitute the "boxing community".

Now, by way of being fair, you can look at Jones failed test. I dont know whether Jones did or did not fail a test, but Richard Hall said he did, it went to print, and Jones never sued Hall for defamation. That is not a good sign.

I just typed "Klitschko Steroid" into Google. You know what I got?

"TONEY".

:atu:

 

I don't care about your other points. You saying a fight at 145 isn't a Welterweight fight cracks me up and is flat out wrong. Once again, plenty of fighters (and including title fights), have come in under 147. Cotto has come in 146 other times. hell even Wuilliams came in around 145 before. Your argument for 145 not being a Welterweight fight isn't weak, it's non existent.

 

Actually you defeated your own point. Mosley NEVER did get caught on a piss test. LOL. his results were caught with Balco but Mosley never failed any drug test administered by the commissions.

 

Okay- so, by way of keeping the debate going, we now have welterweight title fights, as the norm, between guys who are physically not suited to the natural, and time honoured, welterweight division limit???

Is that the new standard? Smaller fighters, incapable of fighting to their optimum beyond the traditional limits, constitute the new welterweight division?

If we agree on this {and boxing seems to have} how do you then square that with Mosley and Margarito doing their utmost to make 147 and fill out overnight?

Is there now two tiers in this fucking division? One for guys who want to make 147 and fill out, and one for guys who want to weaken their opponent and hold him to a 145lb limit on the scales....? A 145lb limit which that opponent then vitiates by way of cash donation?

 

I said that. I said he got done off non-piss related circumstances. First sentence of post #37.

I intimated further that it was a paper trail which did him and I then referred to the Evan Fields scenario.

 

You've obviously never read Conte's statements about how laughably easy it is to pass a piss test.

You mention Evander Holyfield. Nice one. He was accused of steroids since 1988. 20 years later and he finally gets caught. And it wasn't even a piss test. By your standards, when part of his heart literally re-grew had nothing to do with HGH and had everything to do with his prayers being answered. :atu:

And Klitschko rumors extend much further than the New York post.

I can't believe I'm debating with someone who thinks that the heavyweights are better than the welterweights....a guy who has 3 fighters who fought their last fights at welterweight out of his top five pound for pound in the world. Smart.

 

Is 145 a WW fight yes or no? The answer is yes. Things aren't that complicated. The rules in place have been there a long ass time.

 

I think all professional athletes should be juicing. And considering what I've been told by other prominent boxers, I'd be shocked if less than 85% of boxers were juicing.

 

Dude, you need to read what is written.

I think that fighters like Pacquaio, Mayweather.....are fantastic.

I also think they have, between them, shit upon the traditional sense of what it is to be a welterweight. That is to say, a fighter who weighs in at 147 and fights against other fighters who weighed in the same, who has been at 147 for an appreciable length or who intends to stay at 147 for an appreciable period of time.

Thats what welter used to be. Of course, fighters move up, Shane moved up, but he intended staying. Cotto moved up, intended staying, and then took a fight vs a guy who probably cheated. He then took a fight at 147 vs Jennings, a fight vs Clottey at 147 and then, despite being an established 147lbr and beltholder, was forced into a 145 agreement with Pacquaio.

Schismatic, to say the least.

Now, I never said the heavyweights were better than the welterweights. I never said that at all.

Furthermore, you tell me how easy it is to pass a piss test, and then you tell me how Evander failed one. I have already mentioned that the methods are manifold. You can fail a test by legal implication {paperwork} or by medicinal process {the urine test}

You do not seem sure whether it is {a} easy or {b} hard to get caught doing steroids in boxing.

 

Any fight between 140 and 147lbs is welterweight. How hard is that to understand?

 

Thats correct. The tradition has been in place a long long time too.

What we now have is a schismatic system based on weights and bargaining power which has overruled what it used to mean to be a welterweight.


Welterweight, it seems, is now what you can or cannot afford to make it.

When the full range of the weight scale is denied to a combatant by the bargaining power of an opponent who is not comfortable operating inside those limits, then I consider the division basically fucked.

In the meantime, when other fighters are operating within traditional thresholds, a schism comes into being.

Divisions within divisions, determined by bargaining power. For fucks sake.

 

It isn't.

What is hard to understand is Val's hesitancy in accepting my argument about denying a "Welterweight" fighter the full breadth of the weight division.

What makes a Welter a Welter is the opportunity afforded him to weigh as much as 147 at weigh in with his opponent weighing no more. The imposition of arbitrary limits determined by bargaining power is fucking it up for fighters who occupy 147 for that very reason- the chance to weigh 147.

Thats the essence of Welter.

Anything else is a contractual obfuscation of tradition.

 

That is irrelevant.

You said that it was "commonly accepted" that the Klitschkos were roiding.

Commonly accepted by whom and based on what?

 

Technically, 141 is a WW fight too. Would it be fair if a fighter used his drawing power to force fighters to weigh in at 141 to weaken them because he can make that weight easily? I don't think so. 145 may be a WW fight, but it shouldn't become the weight limit because one fighter who happens to be a huge draw can make it and force other fighters to make it because of that. That's a pretty simple point. I know you understand it but I also know you dream of Pacquiao at night, so I understand perfectly why you play dumb and offers a lame technicality as a counter point to Irish argument.

Basically, you can weigh in at whatever between 141-147 suits you the best when you fight at WW, but forcing your opponent to weigh under the historical weight limit isn't fair.

Obviously, Cotto would have been beaten up if he was allowed to make 147 but I think we could all do without these catchweight fights.

Funnily, once Pac negociated with someone who has about the same negotiating power as he has, he didn't ask a contracted weight under the historical limit...

 

The "essence" of welterweight? ::

 

Would you like it if Pac decided to not defend his WW belt against anyone that doesn't want to make 142? After all it is between 140-147, so that's a welterweight fight as you put it...
:shit:

 

Precisley Baron. There are two aspects to being a welterweight, one is that your opponent may not weigh more than 147 at the weigh in, the other is that you are allowed to weigh 147 yourself at weigh in.

Fighters move to, or occupy 147 as it is a weight division which suits them.

It is not that Pac weighed 145 which denies the fight "Welterweight" status.

It is the fact that Pac denied his opponent the chance to weigh 147 which , IMHO, takes it outside the realms of welter and into some make-belief division, where the richer man is King.

 

It sucks, but that's the way it works.

When Henry Armstrong made his attempt at middleweight, he was 142lbs, while Garcia was 153. Did that tarnish the essence of the middleweight division?

 

Which must be a false premise. Welterweight is both fighters being allowed to reach but not exceed 147. In forcing Cotto to accept 145 {a weight he had not trained to for some time} Pacquiao obfuscated that fundamental aspect of the weight division.

 

I will give you an example of what does tarnish the division: Tiger Flowers being allowed only 10 rounds vs Mickey Walker.

This put Flowers at a distinct disadvantage.

Just as asking Cotto to reach 145 weakened him.

HBO and the boys are all fooled by the glamorous nature of the fights. Fuck that. 147 is about being allowed to weigh 147.

Anything else is catchweight.

And I ain't yet heard of the catchweight division. Any more than I have heard of Welters being obliged to weigh no more than 145.:shit:

 

I don't think Armstrong decided the new middleweight limit was 153 because he was a huge draw, so no it didn't tarnish the essence of the middleweight division. I know it takes two to dance, and that the money behind fights force fighters to make concessions but I find catchweights despicable, no matter who asks them.

 

Yes. Essentially, Welterweights must be allowed to weigh in at 147. Forcing a fighter to weigh less than the division permits is arbitrary, dangerous and obfuscatory.

 

I dont mind catchweight.

What I mind is catchweight masquerading as welterweight when the only true welterweight in it has been forced to make a weight not stipulated by the divisions limits.

 

What confuse me here is that everytime someone starts a thread about what's wrong in boxing something that is very often mentionned is that there's too many weight division. Yet, because a very likeable fighter does that, people are ready to accept that new weight limits are forced to fighters with this catchweight trend. These catchweight fights almost create new divisions.

Fuck the guy who invented that... (SRL??? who?)