Khan vs Marquez?

Khan will be favoured to win, certainly, but he will deserve credit if he stops JMM. Not if he gets the kind of BS stoppage he got against MAB, but a legitimate stoppage.

No-one stops JMM- Manny hit him with the kitchen sink twice and couldn't stop him.

A stoppage win would be impressive IMHO.

MTF

 

Let's look at the Marquez reality for a second...

Age - 37

# of fights above 135 - 1

# of fights at 135 - 2

result of last fight - Loss 120-107, 118-109, 118-109

he gets zero credit for taking this fight or ANY result. I'd rather see him in with Zab Judah tha Marquez.

 

Of course he is 'beloved'. Look at his PPV numbers!! Then look at PPV nubmers for Calzaghe and Hatton at their 20-th fight.
The numbers speak for themselves.

 

Calzaghe fought Eubank in his 19th fight. That was on PPV and sold just under a million PPV's.

David Haye fought on PPV in his 24th fight. He sold almost a million and made £8 million for doing so.

Hatton had a multi million pound deal with SKY TV which negated the need for PPV. He was extremely rich well before he fought Tszyu.

Khan has left the country because he doesn't realise how beloved he is.

Keep spinning

MTF

 

I am glad to see that Khan and friends have not abandoned the time honoured tactic of beating up smaller men.

 

Frank Warren gets credit for all three of those guys...he steered their careers brilliantly. Hatton and Calzaghe did a good job of taking as little risk as possible early on.

I'd rank Hatton above Calzaghe...Tszyu was past it when they fought but at least he was in his mid-20's when he finally faced a fading top notch guy. Calzaghe waited until his mid-30's to face old great fighters.

 

Isn't JMM the unified champion at 135? His last (and only) two fights at the weight were stoppage wins over long standing champions?

Zab Judah? Get the fuck out of here...:notallthere:

MTF

 

Hey Oscar De La Hoya made a career out of it.

 

3 divisions above his career weightclass.

Beating 37 year old Marquez at 140 won't mean much, just like it didn't mean much when Floyd beat him.

 

I'm talking about 20-th fight. 20-th. Why do you bring up 19-th fight? Can you count all the way to 20?

See comment above regarding 19-th fight.

The question still stands: how many PPVs Hatton and Calzaghe sold in their 20-th fight?

 

Wow, now you are getting desperate.

I see you didn't bother with my response to your claim that Mayweather doesn't fight for money, huh?

MTF

 

Zab Judah was a champion at 140 and the undisputed champ at 147. If he wants to beat up on old champions, Judah can make 140.

Marquez's best weight was 130 or 126. As said...two fights at 135.

They're fighting at 140.

 

I'm not denying that 135 isn't JMM's best weight. But he can't be too bad there, seeing as he has had TWO fight against long standing champions and won both by KTFO. In fact, I believe that he is still the recognised champ at the weight...

Zab Judah is a complete irrelevance at this point. Beating him would meet absolutely nothing.

MTF

 

I agree Zab would probably be a "free-er" win than Marquez, and I must admit, I was impressed that Gay Marquez convincingly stopped both Diaz and Casamayor, but he looked vulnerable against both of them. Plus Diaz simply isn't very good, and that hideous little cretin Casamayor is a few years past his best.

 

1). Casamayor was past it

2). Juan Diaz isn't and never was a good fighter.

With that said...since you're acknowledging 135 isn't Marquez's best weight and we saw him lose 34 of 36 rounds two weight divisions above, what can we expect when he's in with a younger guy whose taller (than Mayweather) with an equal reach.

Remember...Floyd didn't move a tremendous amount against Marquez and Juan was always short with his punches. Never could close the distance.

I hate Zab Judah as much as the next guy but you're talking about a former champion at 140...the majority of his career was spent in that weight class and the weight class above.

How in the world is it unreasonable to ask Khan to face guys who at least campaigned in the weight division he wants to fight at.

Make the fight at 135 then.

 

Not for a second am I denying that JMM is outside of his comfort zone past 130lb. Of course he is. But looking vulnerable is what JMM does. He's a truly dreadful starter and it always takes him a while to figure out his opponent and get into the fight.

Also, there is some revisionism going on of late, with people rewriting the Diaz fight as JMM seemingly in good fortune after taking a hiding for most of the fight. The fight I watched saw JMM take over by the 7th and put a systematic beating on Juan up to the stoppage. Diaz might never have been great, but no-one has put hurt on him like JMM, a much smaller man over his career, did.

I personally doubt that JMM will be effective at 140, and I'd pick Khan to win a comfortable decision, using his youth, reach and speed to do it. But people are suddenly talking like JMM is a scrub, when he is still in most people's top 5 p4p lists and is the current unified champ at 135.

Hell, we even have people here suggesting that he is of lesser value than Zab friggin Judah at this point... :laughing:

MTF

 

Zab Judah is a FORMER champion. As in YEARS former. He is now old and has lost more fights than he has won recently. Oh yeah, and he is, and always was, shit.

JMM is the reigning champion at 135. You are making him sound like he is years and years past his best. He is 12 months or so away from arguably the best two wins of his career and is still on most p4p lists.

If Khan does what Floyd did and takes it easy en route to a comfortable decision win, no-one will be overly impressed. A stoppage win would be impressive, though. That is all I said.

Oh, and I still cannot BELIEVE you brought Zab Judah into any kind of consideration.

MTF

 

I certainly agree with that, he's not a scrub. I also agree that halfway through the fight JMM took over against Diaz, and against Casamayor too.

But his style is not suited to climbing weight divisions, he looked vulnerable enough against Diaz and Casamayor, more vulnerable than he has at 126/130, and neither are particularly big lightweights.

He doesn't have the speed, power, and aggression of a Duran or Pacquiao to compete with the big boys.

Put it this way, despite being a much better fighter P4P, who do you think has a better chance of beating Khan, Marquez or Maidana?

Khan should be fighting 140 pounders. He should be fighting Maidana or Bradley or even Hatton.

If he fights Marquez, that would mean in the space of a few fights, 50% of his opponents would be featherweights.

 

Yeah, he was tiny, that Trinidad fella. And as for that midget Bazooka Quartey....

 

I have not at any point in this thread said that Khan should be fighting JMM. He shouldn't, and I'd much prefer to see him fighting light welters like Maidana, Bradley, Alexanda, Urango and the like. Maidana and Bradley have a much better chance of beating Khan than JMM does.

I personally don't want to see him fight Hatton, and honestly, I don't think JMM is a worse fight than Hatton would be at this point. I think Hatton is fucked and should retire immediately, in fact.

All I said was that stopping JMM would be impressive, and it would be. Manny couldn't do it and Floyd didn't do it, even though it seemed like he could, so a stoppage win would be impressive. A Floyd-esque win would not be impressive, but it wouldn't be a gimme either, because Khan is certainly no Mayweather and has a china chin. JMM may not carry his power like Manny does, but does he really need to in order to crack Amir's jaw?

MTF :dunno:

 

We're talking about Marquez's age and size differential being an issue.

The real story is Khan and his brain trust not having enough faith in him. They'd rather him drop a title after one fight than behave like a champion and fight a mandatory.

If it's a money issue, don't get in line for a title. It's really that simple.

hell, Nate Campbell would be a better pick than Marquez. Campbell's at least ranked at 140.

While I'm thinking about it...while being "impressed" by Marquez's win over Diaz...lest we not forget the complete undressing Diaz had at the hands of Campbell the year before Marquez beat him.

Diaz came off the loss and beating to Campbell to then get back in line and pick up a vacant title by beating Katsidis.

Marquez picked up the "best lightweight" title by default when Campbell lost his titles on the scales against Funeka.

This is true, is it not?

Golden Boy has Nate Campbell...hell, they also have Victor Ortiz...yeah the guy who quit against Maidana...you know Maidana...the guy Khan would rather dump a title than fight.

No matter how it's sliced, a fight with Marquez is a bitch move.

 

Seriously, were you following boxing when Oscar was coming up? Did you not hear what folks were saying about his fights with Jorge Paez, Jesse James Leija, John John Molina....Chavez???

Really, were you watching fights then?

I will say this...Oscar looked like a beast the night he KO'd Rafael Ruelas. Ruelas was a legit lightweight champ. That was brutal.

 

By default or not, Diaz was the consensus champ at 135 when JMM dissected him. Katsidis is a top five or so fighter at 135 and Juan beat him handily, in spite of one of the scorecards, straight after he lost to Campbell who couldn't even make the weight for his next fight. Only Campbell had ever beaten Juan, who held three of the four major belts a couple of years ago and held one again when he was KTFO by Marquez, who was 35/36 and a much smaller man.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that Khan should have bigger fish to fry at 140 than fighting Marquez. But you are making JMM sound like s crub, when he is the reigning unified champion at the weight immediately below the weight Khan is fighting at. You even said that Zab Judah was a better option for Khan, despite Judah being a bag of shit who is, what, seven or so years removed from his chicken dance moment against Tyszu?

These are the points I am disagreeing with, not that Khan shouldn't be fighting one of half a dozen top guys at 140.

MTF

 

Zab is a name thrown out there since you're talking about FORMER champions. Zab's a former champion in KHAN'S Division.

To solve this is pretty simple.

To legitimize the Marquez fight, make the fight at 135. then there's nothing to discuss. Right?


Why wouldn't that happen?

Fighting Marquez at 135 gives Khan two titles plus the claim to being the best lightweight in the world. yes? Khan beating Marquez at 140 means zero. Marquez isn't ranked at 140.

What's your rationale for Khan not making the fight at 135? Let me pre-empt you...if it boils down to weight and Khan not being able to make 135, you're making my point as to how weight (going up in weight) is a disadvantage for Marquez...who has proven to be ineffective above 135.

Be real careful how you answer this one. :nono:

 

It's more corner-shop horseshit....how the motherfuck this guy gets ANY regard or respect after being WELDED to the canvas by a nothing roadsweeper is BEYOND me.

 

After seeing the insanity that is Pacquiao at 140/147, do you have any doubt at all that he would stop Marquez at those weights? I don't.

And you know, against Floyd, Marquez was there for the taking. It was only down to Floyd's miniscule, shrivelled testicles (partly from all the xylocaine) that Floyd didn't stop him.

So in all honesty, no I wouldn't really be that impressed if Khan stopped him.

 

No, YOU were talking about former champions. I was talking about a current champion (Marquez) fighting another current champion (Khan).

Do you actually read my responses or do you simply create issues in your head and decide to ask me about them instead?

For about the fourth time, I'd much prefer to see Khan fight Maidana, Brdley, Holt, Torres, Alexanda, Urango, Manny Pac or any other good 140lb-er you care to name. I have stated this several times no and don't understand why you are failing to grasp this concept. It is very straightforward, it really is.

All I said was that if Khan stopped JMM, it would be impressive, because two much better fighters in Manny and Mayweather couldn't stop JMM. He's extremely durable and showed that even at 147.

As to the rest of your post, you are barking up the wrong tree here, I'm afraid. My well publicised opinion on why Khan moved up to 140 is because there are about half a dozen guys, from Katsidis upwards, who would starch him at 135. Khan can't take a punch and there were and still are far too many in that division who hit too hard for Amir's liking.

What this has to do with the fact that you think Zab Judah is a better fight than JMM at this point is remains beyond me.

MTF

 

I'll ask your question...are you reading my posts or creating your own issues? Why stuck on the Judah comment...was just a name...a suggestion. Of the list of guys at 140 you mentioned Judah would be at the bottom of the list but at least Khan could say he actually beat a 140 fighter.

Hell, Judah is/was more a threat than Salita who had no business getting a title shot.

1). There's nothing impressive or credit worthy about stopping an older fighter in a second consecutive fight above his weight division.

2). It's not uncommon for young fighters to fight older or veteran champions to pick up belts...

ex. DLH vs Hernandez, DLH vs Paez, Vargas vs Marquez, Mayweather vs Hernandez, Hatton vs Tszyu,

Khan's ducking a mandatory and he could very well lose his belt. Can't say I recall a time that's happened recently.

3). Manny couldn't stop Marquez at 130 and 126...at the same time both were younger and fighting at optimal weights.

4). Floyd couldn't stop him because well...let's be honest...it's floyd. He had no interest in doing so. he was satisfied with the easy payday.

Spin what I'm saying all you want the above points to the same conclusion...there's no credit warranted for beating Marquez.

Not this version, not at this weight.

Khan deserves the same amount of credit (nil) as Floyd warranted for virtually shutting out Marquez.

That is and always has been my point. It's that simple.

 

He looked like shit at 147 fighting Floyd Mayweather. Amir Khan is not Floyd Mayweather and age isn't a factor for Marquez his style is based on timing not speed.

 

BTW, Judah IS a better fight for Khant @ 140 than Marquez. Judah would beat Marquez at 140.