Fightbeat top 20 p4p of all time.

Sorry. I just don't buy it. You can talk around it all day and use some SlyMath to grade each fighter's opponents on a curve in the attempt to make Corrales, Castillo, DLH = Duran, Hearns, Hagler...but the reality is the best opponents on Leonard's resume are significantly better than the best opponents on Mayweather's resume.

 

Joe...

Thanks for your contribution.....but this isn't the point I was making (which was actually addressed to hut hut and others....who are following the point).

I know that hearns is a better and greater fighter than Corrales and I know that Duran is a better and greater fighter than Castillo. Thanks for reminding us again of the obvious. You are preaching to the choir.

I wont repeat my point, rather I'll ask you to simply read back through the thread and gauge where we are at in this discussion.

 

Sly, in fairness to both yourself and Joe I think you're both talking past each other. I think Joe understands your point, he just doesn't think it's the most salient way of judging these things. And you're right that Leonard had great luck to have Duran, Hearns & Benitez right there to fight in the space of two years - that kind of abundance of prime HOF opponents at your weight class is pretty much unprecedented in history and Floyd certainly wasn't in that position.

But that being the case, I personally think the onus falls on Floyd (and did on Roy Jones) to go out and prove all he can, to push the boat out in search of the comparable challenges. Duran jumped two weights to chase Ray Leonard. And he beat him. Nobody made him, he wasn't pressured into it. Ray Leonard came out a 3 year retirement and jumped 2 weights to fight Marvin Hagler! Why didn't Floyd jump right from Castillo II to chasing Tszyu or Vernon Forrest? Those were the pins there for him to knock down - the steps laid out in HIS path to greatness if that was the one he had in mind (cheesy sentence that but true::). Instead his next 8 opponents were Sosa, N'Dou, Corley, Brussles, Gatti, Mitchel, Judah, Baldomir.

Cummon.....

 

charles

 

Exactly. I understand perfectly what Sly is trying to sell, but I'm not buying. ::

 

your lack of knowledge is evident in your MM analysis... you frequently make claims that are patently untrue about fighters of RECENT vintage, never mind ones from Ezzard's time... your prediction record is about the same as everybody else, 50/50

No higher than Bernard or Floyd, are you high??

I loved Hops, but Bernard's title opposition during the bulk of his reign is some of the worst in history, that takes a big chunk out of his all time ranking... if this were a top 30 or 40 list, I could definitely see Bernard being in there for sure... but top 20 and above Charles??? you're being provocative and nothing more with that nonsense. Floyd? If you saw, I said Floyd is basically one big win away for me from being top 20... thats hardly an insult to the guy... but his resume, especially of recent years, can not possibly surpass Charles unless you are simply being provocative again.

Ezzard, fighting as a middleweight and Light Heavyweight fought and beat (in some cases more than once) Charley Burley, Teddy Yarosz, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Joey Maxim, Archie Moore and Elmer Ray... that is a spectacular resume right there...

after this, anything else he does is gravy, and he did A LOT more:

moves up to heavyweight and beats Jersey Joe Walcott, Gus Lesnevich, Rex Layne, Maxim again and clowns poor old Joe Louis... he's already above his best weight and is fading on top of it but still manages two great efforts against Marciano and wins over Bob Satterfield, and one more each against Bivins and Layne

of his 25 losses, 20 came after his loss to Walcott... given the insane level of opposition he was facing, a 69-5-1 record is incredible over that time span

The light heavyweight champs during those prime years were Gus Lesnevich (whom Charles battered) and Freddie Mills (who never would have fought him anyway and who lost the title by KO to FIVE-TIME Charles victim Joey Maxim) and you have the fucking ignorant audacity to chide him for not winning the title???? You are a clown

Charles HAS to be on this list... if he's not, then you are wrong, its that simple... this is not a borderline case... it is certainty

 

but it isnt about JUST that... Bob Foster fought and demolished every 175 pounder around in his time, but it was a TERRIBLE division... Mike Spinks fought and beat 'em all in one of the best divisions EVER... Spinks HAS to be rewarded for that... it isnt just a head-to-head matchup (I might favor Foster in that matchup) and it isnt just "well, I fought everybody available" , it is WHO you fought and how tough they were... Floyd's comp at 130 and 135 was very good and tough, but Leonard's comp at 147 was EPIC and he has to be given consideration for that...

 

Also, the argument of today versus yesterday is irrelevant... you have to address them for their time... you can't hold the 1940s against Ray Robinson and use the 2000s to elevate Floyd Mayweather or vice versa... if it were that way then the whole discussion becomes meaningless... you do that and you end up with a current back up tackle on the Steelers being greater than Mean Joe Greene, or Juan Diaz greater than Benny Leonard... that is a completely idiotic way of evaluating greatness... the flipside would be John L Sullivan beats Mike Tyson in a bare knuckle fight because tyson didnt do that professionally, which Im sure most of you would rightly reckognize as moronic

 

Very good point. When I started my list, I thought Foster would be included, but his opposition was not so good and he was such complete failure against the heavies that I just couldn't find a spot for him. I don't know if there is Lightheavy I would pick over Foster head to head, but his competition kept him out of the top 20 for me.

 

So let me get this straight, you criticize Leonard for "ducking" Barkley and for fighting Duran...even though Duran had beaten Barkley and taken his Middleweight title in his fight prior to the Leonard fight.

This is why I have a hard time accepting a lot of what you have to say about fighters that you are a fan of...you slant things far too much when dealing with a fighter you like. You are trying really hard to make this comparison between Leonard and Mayweather and as a result are just throwing a bunch of fighter's names against the wall and hoping some them will stick.

And what is Mayweather doing now that he has made a "comeback"?? So far he had fought a former Featherweight Champ who was zero threat and now is preparing for a fight with a 38 year old Mosley, who is the SAME age that Duran was (older than old is old when old is old....remember???)) when he fought Leonard for the 3rd time.

 

exactly my feeling. I would be hard pressed to pick anybody at 175 to beat Foster at his best... he was just devastating... but there are too many other things to consider when ranking fighters

 

Still waiting on Feebes & REED. Cough em up boys! And I believe TKO should post his or apox on his very soul. Mexican Wedding shirt - hand over the merchandise, too!

 

Sly, have you changed your mind or are you just "fucking with everybody" again with the Charles thing, since a bit over a year ago you gave this all-time ranking list and ranked him yourself

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2. Muhammad Ali
3. Roy Jones Jnr
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Floyd Mayweather Jnr
6. Roberto Duran
7. Henry Armstrong
8. Sugar Ray Leonard
9. Willie Pep
10. Joe Louis
11.Pernell Whitaker
12. Julio Cesar Chavez
13. Carlos Monzon
14. Thomas Hearns
15. Marvelous Marvin Hagler
16. Manny Pacquiao
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Bob Foster
19. Harry Greb
20. Ezzard Charles


So during the last year, Hopkins has dropped six slots while Joe Louis gas risen as much. And during last year Joe Calzaghe, Ricardo Lopez and Aaron Pryor have entered the rankings and surpassed Foster and Charles (and obviously Greb too, if he was listed)

 

Here's my tentative list. It's fairly standard, to be honest, and I don't even like it much myself, if I'm brutally honest:

1. Robinson
2. Ali
3. Leonard
4. Duran
5. Charles
6. Hearns
7. Louis
8. Pacquiao
9. Monzon
10. Saddler
11. Hagler
12. Jesus Chavez
13. Pep
14. Roy Jones Jr
15. (Michael) Spinks
16. Jofre
17. Whittaker
18. Sal Sanchez
19. Arguello
20. Holyfield

Next few would have been (in no particular order):

Prior, Harada, (Lennox) Lewis, Mayweather Jr, Hopkins

I wouldn't argue too hard with anyone who found a spot for Prior over Arguello, but for me the two head to head wins are superceded by Arguello's success at two weights rather than Prior's dominance at light welter. It's the "pound for pound" aspect which turns it for me.

I wanted to include at least one British boxer, and to that end I tried to shoehorn Lewis in there. I could have relied on his successes over Holyfield as justification for it, and wouldn't argue too hard against anyone who does. Bottom line is that Holy is a certain top five all time at CW and in many people's top ten at HW. Again, though, I favour Holyfield's success at two weights over Lewis' dominance at HW.

If the list was a little more expansive through the early years, I would have definitely found a place for Britain's best ever- Jimmy Wilde. He fought too early, though.

The only other British possible IMHO was Calzaghe, but he falls short because of his lack of truly world class opponents. Beating a shot to shit Jones Jr doesn't count. He'd probably make the top thirty-five or so IMHO.

Hopkins doesn't make it despite his incredible longevity and successes at multiple weights. His losses to Taylor, Calzaghe and Jones Jr just keep him out of the top twenty.

Mayweather Jr looked to be a shoe-in six years ago, but his awful competition at 147 holds him back. I'm not going to go over this again, but really, his inability to fight any of about six or seven established, credible welterweight threats is inexcusable for the purposes of this list. That said, a dominant win over Mosely might just put him back into contention.

Only two other 'modern' fighters make the list. Pacquiao is quite simply the best boxer to fight in my lifetime- an incredible force of nature who has torn through established weight classes like they mean nothing. The other, Jones Jr, is as high as he is primarily because of his incredible success through middleweight to heavyweight. People can denigrate Ruiz as much as they like, but he was a legitimate champion IMHO and that win was incredible for Jones Jr and unheard of in the modern era.

So that is that then, for what it is worth... ::

MTF

 

:bears:

Good job. I was expecting to see Lewis and Calzaghe at the very least on your list, but you were able to look past your biases while creating it.

 

Thanks Feebes. When REED coughs his up I'll tally them.:bears:

 

So you don't rank Floyd within a mile of the top 20 yet, after coming from retirement, being older and not looking as prime as Pacquiao you pick him to beat him? I mean, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I understand the accomplishments side of the argument but I have the firm belief that their resume is clearly not that apart (Specially with the upcoming Mosley fight) and if you're objective enough to think that he will probably beat Manny, there's no way he should rank far away.

Floyd beats Mosley and Pacquiao clearly and there's no way you can rank Manny ahead.

 

I don't have either in my list because ranking guys when they have career defining fights coming up this year is fraught with these very type of difficulties. But based on resumes TODAY, I don't think Floyd ranks. But like I said in an earlier post he certainly has the fights available to him to change that. And my pick is hat he does change that. But until he does it's just me making predictions it isn't based on what he's done yet.

 

If Floyd wins a close fight against Manny after beating Mosley, IMO it'll be hard to separate Floyd and Manny historically, IMO. Manny is certainly ahead right now and the fact that Floyd is the bigger man will have to be factored in. My tentative feeling is both would end up AROUND the top 10, somewhere between 8-14 in that circumstance but until all this shit happens it's extremely hard to contextualize it in advance. If Manny ices Floyd he's top 5. If Floyd dominates Manny he'll certainly have a place in the top 10.

 

My bad, I just saw your list. I thought you had ranked Manny like top 5 right now and you had Floyd far and away. Agreed we gotta wait to see how they finish their careers.

 

Yeah, it's too hard until then, too many things can happen.

 

If Mayweather was to beat Shane and then Manny, he'd definately be top fifteen at least for me. No question.

MTF

 

Ditto. And if he does so in dominant fashion the placing rises.

 

I hate it when Holyfield makes these lists. Loss machine.

 

Good post. I am also waiting to see how the rest of their careers play out before I try to find a place for them on my list.

 

REED, show the good people your list so I can add these suckers up!

 

Here's REED's...

1. Walker Smith
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Roberto Duran
4. Cassius Clay
5. Ray Leonard
6. Manny Pacquiao
7. Pernell Whittaker
8. Ezzard Charles
9. Roy Jones Jr.
10. Alexis Arguello
11. Julio Cesar Chavez
12. Joe Louis
13. Michael Spinks
14. Willie Pep
15. Ricardo Lopez
16. Floyd Mayweather
17. Evander Holyfield
18. Marvin Hagler
19. Carlos Monzon
20. Aaron Pryor

CLEARLY, REED Tends to Rate Multi-Weight Dominance HIGHER than Ruling a Single Weight Class...6-20 Could all CHANGE Depending on REED's Mood (Pacquiao is Likely BENEFITTING via RECENCY on REED's List), but the Top 5 R Locked, Loaded & will Likely NEVER Change for the Remainder of REED's Life...

Sorry it Took Sooooooo Loooooooooong, Hut...



REED:mj:

 

CRUSIERWEIGHT Holyfield is 1 of THE BEST that Ever Did It....


REED:kidcool:

 

I think top 20 (let alone 12) is a stretch for Jesus Chavez.

 

Thank you Mr.REED. Some surprises on there! I will tally them when I get a chance. Unfortunately with work and study that might be a couple days.:bangh: