Salient point, on the subject of match-making. With finances being what they are today, that cannot be emphasised enough.
Sometimes, I wonder if the Klitschkos would get the praise they do if they were observed on a hand-cranked film, instead of Hi-Def TV. I really do.
The klitschkos would win solely on the fact that they are a million times bigger... if Joe Louis had the same abilities and attirbutes he had but was 6'4 240 he'd ice Wladimir in a round and he'd cut Vitali into a bloody mess... can anyone honestly argue with that?
And if Muhammad Ali had been born with no arms, then he too would have been shit at boxing. And if Ali had not been 6'3" maybe he would not have been able to pull away from Fraziers hooks. And if Quarry was 6'4" and 220lbs he might have taken Ali. ld:ld:ld:
well, you do realize that human beings have progressively gotten bigger and bigger in developed countries in the last century, generation after generation? Are you suggesting there was untapped surplus of 6'7, 250 pound boxers hanging out in the Ukraine back in 1938? you arent talking about Quarry's 200 pounds versus Alis 215... you are talking Louis's 6'1 195 bersus guys SIX OR SEVEN INCHES AND SIXTY POUNDS bigger!!! How can you even MAKE such a ridiculous comparison?
So? two inches is alot..and so is ten pounds. Secondly..Ali's style means that his smaller size isn't nearly the disadvantage that it would be for a stationary boxer puncher.
Two inches & ten pounds is small change with men standing six foot or above & weighing in excess of 200lbs.
I tried pointing that out......to no avail It is 6'2" and 210lbs PLUS a whole SHITLOAD of skills and a better fighting brain to go with it. Not to mention that Ali was a physically tougher man than Joe. He was light years ahead of Joe in just about every facet bar bodypunching. Ali's fistic significance is often overshadowed by his out-of-the-ring accomplishments. Because Joe shuffled around saying nothing, people seem to have elevated his skills beyond what they were.
RS is arguing that Joe's destruction of the interminably bummish Ambling Alp is enough to suggest that Joe could hang with the size difference of either Klitschko. If you want a bad comparison, that is it, right there. Fighters are what they are. Joe Louis fought 6'6" 240lb Buddy Baer and was dumped on his arse twice before Baer was DQ'd for arguing with the referee over some perceived infractions. We don't know what sort of people existed beyond Germany because of the political situation in the 1930's. We do know that the one heavyweight who did come out of there, Jack Sharkey, was a moderately talented dude, who threw a fight against Carnera and who fouled out against Schmelling. Using the "White Hope" hypothesis, it seems unlikely that the populations of that part of the world did not hold a contender who could have seriously challenged Louis. Too many men out there for there not to be some useful fighters amongst them. When Jack Johnson finally fought Willard, Willards size, stamina and freshness were as instrumental in that victory as any other factor. Repeating my original premise, it is folly to suggest that so-and-so only "wins because of their size". Physical size, and the use of that mass, is an integral part of contact sports, and this is true of boxers as it is any other sportsman. It does not warrant referring to as an end in itself, any more than handspeed, or chin, or balls or heart or any other tangible or intangible characteristic of the individual fighter. What champion has ever been besmirched, or his achievements belittled, or his chances derided, because he had..."long arms", or "unusually hard hands", or great "cut resistance"??? It's like saying Marciano would never have been champ if he didn't have such a great heart. Or that Tyson would never have been champ if he didnt have the speed or peek-a-boo to complement his physique. The fact is that they had these characteristics and those characteristics would have to be dealt with by their prospective, respective opponents. Fighters are what they are. And it is my contention that a 6'8" iron-jawed guy like Vitali, with the tricks and the nous that he has would have had more than enough to put Joe Louis away, in short order. Likewise Wladimir, who has displayed enough athleticism, jab and power to suggest he could more than trouble Louis. His chin is not iron but it is not pure mush either. And his left hook is MILES better than Billy Conns. And, for what it is worth, neither Klitschko has a 60lb weight advantage. Vitali was 238 for Arreola, thats a 36lb weight advantage. You are out by around 40%, but better luck next time.
I agree with this. Guys like the Klitschkos get shat on for being big guys, but you don't see other people dealt the same criticism for being fast guys, or powerful guys etc. They're all things you're born with, and if you have the tools, you might as well use them. It's a natural attribute just like anything else.
+1. Fighters are what they are, and are under an obligation to make the most of their physical resume. If you are tall, fight tall. Period. Vitali is one of the better exponents of Ring Generalship out there. He has, as Manny Steward noted, an arsenal of "weird and unusual" punches, which are a departure from the norm.
Right. I simply think Louis has more --- a lot more --- of everything. I also don't think Vitali Klitschko is as immune to Joe Louis' offense as you may interpret.
i can find guys that are big monsters.. doesn't mean they can fight guys today are carefully matched.. protected... the "0" is so important.. back then guys fought everyone and fought them multiple times..
Yea but what suggests that the big monster Klitschkos CAN'T fight? They're no Valuev. Plus they don't have an 0 to protect. Obviously the competition isn't really up to it in this era but that doesn't mean they can't fight.
I just don't look at the Klitschkos' & think, "Special fighter," in either instance. I think they're genuinely good men, but they have, "Contender" written on their foreheads in most, not just some, other eras. Big brother especially, who is far, far too stiff & sluggish to take advantage of Louis at close-range, & not nearly as impervious to his firepower as some may contend. He's rarely, if ever, been hit as hard as Louis would hit him, & never, ever has he fought someone who could do it with eight or nine punches in a blur. That's what devastated the toughest of fighters --- men tougher than Klitschko. Not simply being hit brutally hard, but being hit brutally hard with pin-point precision, lightning bolt handspeed, & a dozen times before you've recovered from the first shot.
But then you're making the assumption he couldn't stand up to it, which is something I would never do in a mythical match up unless I have seen the guy sparked or wobbled badly in a fight. Vitali has shown no such frailties as yet in his career.
That's true, but his opponent left Tony Galento stumbling into the ropes, senseless. Crucified Abe Simon, & triple-floored the unfloorable Arturo Godoy. Maxxy Baer was an iron-jawed fighter hardly ever off his feet, until a young Louis left him submitting on the canvas. If Klitschko is tougher & more capable of standing upto punishment than these men are, I sure don't think it's by much. If you look at it this way, say someone hasn't been outboxed, but they're fighting Muhammad Ali, or Gene Tunney. Best boxers out there. Louis would be the best fighter offensively, & the best fighter in nigh-on every category Klitschko has ever faced. In contrast, what does Klitschko bring to the table which is better than any single Louis opponent? He's a better big man than the big men Louis beat, but not by as dramatic a margin as I think some contend. I see the problems for Louis in this fight as significant, & against little brother, as well. To say I see them as insurmountable would gift the Klitschkos' more ability to go with their size then I'm comfortable with doing, but I wouldn't want that to appear disrespectful, as I do respect these men. Simply, purely, they are out-matched by a plainly-superior foe, here.
No, but bums like a fat pasta eating mobster who never trained a day in his life has him on the floor with a 3/4 left hook that NO proper fighter should ever be caught by. Abe Simon? A big NON PUNCHER if ever there was one. You know what Abe Simon is famous for? Starring in the movies with Galento and Mauriello in the same flick in 1952. Keep staring at the grainy black-and-whites......ld:ld:
He is more immune to Joe than Joe is to him. Height and reach advantages have that effect. You may have noticed that the ONLY fighter who caught Klitschko repeatedly {and to no major cerebral effect} was none other than 6'6" 83" reach Lennox Lewis. A guy who hits infinitely harder than Louis ever did. Klitschko gets off first and best against little Joe, and with Joe's chin being what it was, that's curtains. He will be so badly hurt by the time he gets into position to land that he wouldnt land with half the effect. This is the fundament. Louis was lethal against guys of a comparable size who lacked the skills, especially the defensive skills, to avoid the incoming. He does not have that luxury against either Klitschko, just as he didn't have it against Buddy Baer, who, whilst the weaker of the two Baer's, enjoyed considerably more success than his supposedly better brother. Ratio Decidendi: Louis struggled with height and reach.
You know why? Because he fought Godoy and looked like shit and had to do it again. Because he fought 170lb Conn and looked like shit and had to do it again. Even at that it was delayed 4 years. Because he fought Walcott and looked like shit {probably lost} and had to do it again. Because he fought Schmelling and got KTFO and had to do it again...and when he did the good old Yankee public more than played its part in, shall we say, the pre-fight festivities. Because he fought Buddy Baer and got dropped and won on a DQ and had to do it again. Any of those first fights, any of those lackluster defense deficient performances against a guy like Vitali...and you are going OUT. Rationale says he loses to Vitali. But grainy white fotos with Edith Piaf playing in the background says Louis by KO1. :bangh::bangh::bangh::bangh:
You should be concerning yourself with Ackermanus Dackermanus and his nudity arse-slapping, and worrying "if I can handle that guy, can I handle that guy" :nono:
:: Give credit to the rest of the orchestra for bringing out the best, it's been great, by far and away the most entertaining myth match thread I've ever come across, everybody played a part.
Now I'm off to take a black and white foto of myself, slop around in the mud for a bit, hold my britches up with silk scarves, throw some soot on my balls and call out the best the world has to offer. Their ability to fight won't count a whit once I unleash my devestating black-and-white power. Modern training? Bah humbug. I have porridge and a '37 Coupe De Ville, baby.
I agree completely brother Ramonza i'm not saying they are "bums" but they are not great and IMO Louis was
Thats not the point. The Klitschkos will never be great because they dont have the comp, they dont have the Yanks onboard and they dont have the grainy black and white bullshit. The point is that stripped to the waist and fucked into a ring with Joe Louis they more than have their way with the small, slow, chinny fellow.
