Does the Jones of the Ruiz fight out-box Ray for 12 rounds, or does Ray walk through him and stop him?
I'd have to pick with Mercer here I think. I mean Jones would have to go the full 12 without taking anything significant. And he wouldn't have the respect/fear factor power wise that allowed him to feint and hypnotize his guy into relative passivity like he could 160-175. I think Mercer within 4, actually
Cmon Ray almost beat Lennox. You think he can't beat Roy? For one I don't think Roy would ever fight him. For two Ray knocks him out in 5. Ray Mecer is a lot better than John Ruiz ever was.
Yep. Jones' best shots wouldn't even get Mercer's attention. If Mercer came in all unfocused and under-trained as he did sometimes, Jones MIGHT be able to steal enough rounds to win a controversial decision. But if Mercer takes the fight seriously and comes out looking to put hurt on Jones, Roy is getting stopped at some point. Jones might be able to run and survive a few rounds, but Mercer eventually gets to him and it's sooner rather than later.
Mercer's jab, a nice short powerful jab, wins this fight. He'd probably stop Jones against the ropes.
He also nearly beat Lewis and knocked out Morrison. When are you going to understand - citing a loss is not a sound argument.
Mercer wouldn't be able to go after Holmes in the same way he would Roy, and he also wouldn't be able to seriously hurt him with one shot. A super lazy Mercer could conceivably get out-pointed by Jones, but anything other than that kind of scenario Roy gets KO'd.
Jones was a phenomenal talent, but Ray Mercer, a heavy handed, tungsten-jawed guy is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT proposition than John Ruiz Roy could outland him 10-to-1 and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference, he's getting stopped
Mercer had a great left jab, and thats something lacking from an awful lot of the guys Roy beat, barring Clinton Woods. Roy cannot hurt him, and cannot keep him off him, and that's about that. Roy cannot beat Mercer.
Agreed, in that instance. Likewise, De La Hoya naturally over Ottke. How about career achievements for De La Hoya & Marciano, though?
I'd probably give that to Marciano. But the fact he has a shiny '0' doesn't mean a whole lot to me, either. If a prime Joe Louis had been around and he'd gone say 1-2 with him like Frazier did with Ali I'd frankly think much more highly of him, since he'd have proven himself at a much higher level than he did.
Indeed, he would have. If he won one from three versus Louis, he'd already have superceded my estimation of him, as I don't consider that a very winnable fight for Marciano --- though, in fairness, that is, at worst, the number-two HW force of all-time. There isn't a Heavy who drew breath Louis couldn't knock out on his best night. Peak-for-peak, I see Marciano's corner retiring him after about eight or nine rounds. A beating, sound, swift & savage in delivery.
When you break it down Marciano's resume is really astoundingly poor. A very shopworn 33 year old Charles, staggering on the very precipice of shotsville, a near 40 year old Archie Moore, a 37 year old Savold, a 38 year old Joe Wallcott (who hadn't beaten anyone meaningful apart from the same near shot Charles since Light heavyweight Harold Johnson 3 1/2 years previous) & a truly shot to pieces Joe Louis. LaStarza & Cockell might be the most meaningful wins there. Shares a fair amount in common with the other major champion to have recently retired undefeated. The '0' means shit. Sweet FA.
You'd still give him the nod over De La Hoya, though? I know you feel De La Hoya won those fights with Trinidad & Mosley (as do I), but still falling short, you'd say?
Exactly....as I went through it I started to doubt my initial answer. A sensible case could be made either way.
I have a hard time ignoring just how much better Jones was than Mercer though. It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that Jones out-points him using his legs and speed.
I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, but i have a hard time seeing it happening if Mercer is at his best. If it's the older verision of Ray then i agree Roy could certainly outpoint him.
See here lies a problem with "outpointing" it kinda means that Roy would land more punches than Ray would land which kinda implies that Ray would land punches and if Ray lands punches it kinda becomes sleepy time for Roy.
By 2003, Roy Jones still had MOST of his Handspeed, but his FOOTWORK had Diminished Quite Noticeably...Roy was MUCH more Flatfooted by then...He COULDN'T B Flatfoot for Extended Periods & Expect to BEAT the '91 Version of Ray Mercer... REED:hammert:
PRE-2000's Roy Jones Could CONCEIVABLY Get it done, but NOT the Post-New Milennium Version...After All, Roy was on the Same Olympic Team as Mercer, so there was a FAMILIARITY w/Mercer's Style, Strengths & Weaknesses... PRE-2000's, it's an Interesting Fight...POST-2000's, it DEFINITELY Ends UGLY for Roy.... REED:hammert:
