Felix Trinidad (Prime) vs Chavez Jr @154

oh, give me a break

David Reid was NEVER THAT GOOD TO BEGIN WITH... seriously, what is Reid's best win before fighting Trinidad? Laurent Boudouani??? Kevin Kelly (who DROPPED him, by the way) ?

he was hurt by Trinidad because he wasnt very durable, didnt have a good chin and because Trinidad was a GREAT puncher

as for Vargas, where is the evidence that Vargas had a terrific chin prior to Trinidad??? what big hitter did he face?? an over-the-weight Ike Quartey?? Quartey hurt Vargas in that fight, but it was a boxing match, there wasnt the type of toe-to-toe exchanges that Vargas engaged in with Trinidad... he went right after Trinidad, believing himself to be the stronger man and he got nailed with perfect left hooks and he got hurt... it was the first time hed ever been hit that clean by anybody who could really hit... Vargas's losses all happen against a much higher class of offensive fighter than he ever tangled with pre-Trinidad (DLH and Mosley, for example... I wont count Mayorga because by then he is clearly on his last legs) ... there is nothing that supports the notion that Vargas had a real good chin and that somehow it was ruined by Trinidad, its a popular boxing message board myth and nothing more

just like the myth of your "evidence"

 

Again. You're missing the point when you talk about how good or not good David Reid was (just as you were in your argument about Thiam).

Let's leave it at this:

It's my opinion that the tape/gauze configuration that Hopkins' team objected to, and that Felix Sr. confirmed is the same configuration his son had always used, provided him with an illegal and dangerous advantage. When Tito no longer enjoyed this advantage, he wasn't nearly as effective as he'd previously been. I also contend that due to Tito's illegal tape/gauze configuration, both Vargas and Reid, and probably others, sustained serious physical trauma in their losses to him, above and beyond what can be reasonably expected to occur in a fair prize-fight.

I'll take any retort to this opinion as indication that you don't like my opinion, and if your reply is once again fiery, I'll take it to mean also that I've hurt your feelings. And if there's personal attacks I'll take it to mean you have no sound arguments to offer (which is all I can expect since it's my opinion).

 

1) You have not established exactly what effect this wrapping style would have, if any, on Trinidad's punch... you've offered absolutely no impirical evidence that illustrates how this wrapping style alters a boxer's punch... this isn't Margarito with carefully hardened wraps around his knuckles... it is not something obvious and clear cut

2) Both Vargas and Reid, two young fighters who had never been hit consistently by a power puncher in there whole careers prior to fighting Trinidad were then hit consistently by him and were hurt and stopped as a result... there was nothing particularly unusual about the KO of Vargas, or the punches he took (again for really the first time in his career) in that fight... he was hit by hard clean punches and he was hurt, the same way 1000 guys have been hit and hurt in fights going back 100 years... "above and beyond what can reasonably be expected in a prize fight"??? what does that even mean? what is reasonably expected? this is boxing, the objective is to punch someone repeatedly and with great force... physical punishment, pain and injury are the inevitable byproduct of the activity... there are fighters who have taken vastly more punishment in losses than Reid or Vargas did, there are fighters who have DIED as a result of the activity, for christ's sake... what about those people? were SRR's gloves loaded when he killed Jim Doyle? Emile Griffith against Benny Peret? loaded gloves?? you have as much evidence for them as you do for Trinidad... hell, Reid lasted the full 12 rounds after crashing, what was it, THREE times in one round? Naither Vargas nor Reid suffered unusual physical injuries in their battles with Felix Trinidad...

Finally, as I've already pointed out 700 times, you keep mentioning that Trinidad "was not as effective after the Hopkins fight" ... perhaps it is because 1) he was soundly outboxed by a bigger, better fighter which certainly must have done a number on his psyche, especially considering how high he was riding at the time ... 2) he fought once more after the Hopkins fight and then did not fight for MORE THAN TWO YEARS before facing Ricard Mayorga, a solid-chinned fighter (who had never been truly KNOCKED OUT prior to facing him) whom he beat the living daylights out of... then he waited more than a year to face Winky Wright, a notoriously difficult opponent who was also a naturally bigger man, and who has been active while Trinidad was doing nothing... then 3 years later he faces fellow shot has-been Roy Jones... this is your evidence that he was "never the same"??? Are you suggesting that these "supernatural" wraps would have enabled him to magically not get punched in the face and completely outmaneuvered by Bernard Hopkins, a strong middleweight with a proven chin?? these wraps would have been able to allow Trinidad to somehow avoid the jab of Winky Wright??? he would have been able to land clean power shots on a guy who is famous for making that difficult( Wright again) ?

Thats sure as hell what you are implying and its nonsensical and completely off-base from reality

 

Trinidad blew Vargas off his legs with a jab. Unusual!

The left hook Tito hit Hopkins with at the end of the first round would've hurt Hopkins if he had his wraps.

I guess you don't agree. But my opinion is that Trinidad relied on his wraps for his unusual power, power that he apparently didn't have in the amateurs.

 

when did that happen? he dropped him in that first round with Left Hooks

as for the second part, what do you base that on?? Hopkins tendency to get hurt by single punches from naturally smaller guys??? talk about just throwing EVERYTHING out there and hoping it will stick

you are using the amateurs as the basis??? thats your new made-up evidence? ok, so clearly Tommy Hearns had loaded gloves in the pros because he seldom knocked anyone out in the amateurs

you haven't answered any of the points I've made, you just come up with new "evidence"

 

Wait. He still hasn't mentioned 'dipped and dried' yet.

 

You don't recall Vargas's legs buckling severely from one of Trinidad's jab?


What other points? Your point is that Reid, Vargas and Thiam were no good, that Tito managed to stop Mayorga, and that he sucked later in his career due to reasons other than not having his magic wraps. Nice. Rock solid.

 

He didnt suck anymore in his later career than he ever did, he just came up against fighters who were too good for him to compete against due to their styles and size... and Im sure his lengthy layoffs post-jopkins didnt help any... but the reality is that we are talking about ONE fight (Wright) in which he "was never the same" ... forget the Jones fight, it was two old has-beens going at it. The Wright fight is the only one where he didnt look EXACTLY THE SAME as he always had, and thats because Wright was far and away the best fighter he went up against post-Hopkins

you have no evidence at all of anything, you are talking out of your ass the way you have always done

 

Trinidad was a cheater. Trinidad cheated.

 

any proof? NONE....Team Hopkins making a big stink about the wrapping technique and Papa Trinidad saying he always wrap his son hand the same way is NOT PROOF of wrong doing....

who cheated and are cheaters? Margarito...and you're boy Jose Luis Castillo..

 

despite the fact that all of your reasoning behind it can be easily obliterated into smithereens

 

no it doesn't. in the end, your only argument is that i have no proof. and i don't. but i do have the power of observation, and i say he cheated.

 

a fairly compelling point on my part, wouldn't any sane person agree??

you have as much proof of what effect Trinidad's wrapping technique actually did as I have proof that Manny Pacquiao could flap his arms and fly at the end of a fight

 

it's not a fucking court of law. i don't need proof to think that he cheated. i think he did. period. deal with it.

by the way, what is impirical evidence? i looked that word up - it's no where to be found.

 

So it's just your opinion...NOT a fact.....

 

Yes. It is my opinion that it is a fact.

 

it is a misspelling by yours truly... empirical, look that up

as for your first point, you don't think that's a bit ridiculous?

to just state something is true (over and over, as you have done for years on this very topic) without a single shred of evidence?

 

if i had evidence, it would be a fact. and i've already conceded that it isn't. like me, you too are without evidence, and yet you seem very confident in your position. what does this mean?

it means we both have observation, logic and reason at our disposal, and nothing more. you've made your case. i've made mine.

there's no burden of proof here. not for me. not for you.

you've fallen short of convincing me of your position. i've fallen short of convincing you of mine.

 

no, you miss the point as always

YOU made a case

I ripped it to shreds and asked you essentially "what do you have left?"

you said "nothing, but its my opinion so :cheer:"

thats what happened

I didnt have to make a case for anything... the burden of proof is on you, you are the one making the allegation... I have made no allegation of Trinidad's guilt or innocence, I've merely pointed out the the things you consider proof are in fact NOT proof

 

nowhere have i claimed to have proof of anything. all i've done is voice my opinion on Trinidad. you seem to fundamentally object to this, which is your problem, not mine.

the best you could've hoped for in the debate was to convince me my opinion is wrong. you've not done that.

 

but you dont present it EVER as if it were merely speculation

you emphatically state "TRINIDAD CHEATED, LOADED GLOVES BLAHBLAHBLAH" in EVERY SINGLE THREAD about the guy, as if it were a proven, foregone conclusion that EVERYBODY knows

 

This isn't a fucking news site dumb-ass. It's a discussion board. And besides that, I've been saying it's my opinion for three fucking pages.

 

the first three pages you have ever chosen to do so

in the 50000 previous pages in which you have posted this absurd, completely unsupported claim, you have stated it as if it were a simple matter of fact

I'M a dumb-ass? LOL, this coming from a guy who can't even offer a shred of evidence to support a claim he insists is true

 

Trinidad definitely had illegally loaded gloves.

 

Were they "dripped and dried"???

 

No proof of that at all. It was hardly even suggested, I think Hopkins may have brung it up but not in an accusatory manner.

 

and like Double L, I am sure you can provide "loads" of proof

 

Ya

 

same story we've all known for nine years

has nothing to do with A) showing exactly what the real difference is in power, unlike established forms of glove loading such as plaster, padding removal from gloves, etc. - which is HUGELY important here ... B) the fact that nobody else ever said boo about it before Hopkins' camp

and of course, the article makes the same bullshit, revisionist "guys were never the same argument" that is easily torn to pieces

doesnt it bother you that the only source to have actually FELT the wrap was a member of Hopkins' camp??? And that it is Hopkins himself telling you that wrapping this way makes it "feel like plaster" ... how does he know that?

do you just believe everything you read?

incidentally, under the now watchful eyes of the opposition, how different did Trinidad look stopping Cherifi?? or Mayorga, for that matter? looked the same, hurt both guys constantly, knocked them both out

 

Tito's trainer admitted that taking away the tape reduced the power. It's pretty clear cut.