If Klitschkos fought each other which one would you cheer for?

I'm not completely convinced that Vitali would have beaten the Sanders if they had fought as originally slated back in 2002. Here's my reasoning. Vitali knew NOTHING about Sanders. He along with Wlad knew nothing about Sanders being a dangerous left hander with 1 punch power. When Wlad made the Sanders fight, he saw the Sanders name and thought "Ah, easy opponent lurking in the top 10, hasn't done sh*t in years, I'll take his ass out for an easy million!"
Now it's obvious Sanders was a complete tub of sh*t in the Vitali fight but seemed anything but in the Wlad fight. Only after Sanders brutalized Wlad did Vitali and all of us really understand the threat of Sanders. Vitali developed a gameplan which he most likely would not have implemented if he had met Sanders a year earlier and without the knowledge of what Sanders brought to the table.
Also, people on here were calling Vitali anything but tough after the Byrd loss. Vitali received his toughness reputation after the Lewis fight. Since then, it's been pretty disappointing seeing the unqualified competition he's been feasting on, mostly against a bunch of short fatassed f*cks like Kirk Johnson and Danny Williams and Sam Peter.

 

Vitali

 

Just a minute, there. I think you may've read too deeply into my Ali-Chuvalo comment. It was a throw-away line, not a direct comparison, though I probably could've made that clearer. I wasn't saying the gulf between each Klitschko was similar, just pointing out how toughness will not always trump talent --- far from it, in fact. Someone mentioned Zab Judah, but he still beat the daylights out of Micky Ward, didn't he? It happens.

You say there is so much more to Boxing than skill, or fighting nous...but conversely, those are hugely, hugely intricate & detailed parts of the sport, so it is just as valid to say there is so much more to Boxing than toughness, & durability. Toughness is not necessarily more valuable than ability --- & I believe big brother's ability is a fair distance (maybe not huge, but not close, either) short of junior's, & always has been, really. His durability has made older brother more consistent, but that's every bit as much a function of the supremely lacklustre opposition both have faced throughout their careers.

I just cannot see the comparatively limited big bro producing the right combination of punching sequences, raw power & natural killer instinct (he has none of the three in any great measure) to make it the likely outcome that he knocks his little brother out. Of course it could happen, but I'd be betting it wouldn't.

 

Ramonza, to me Judah/Ward is an equally ridiculous comparison... Ward makes George Chuvalo look like Wilfred Benitez... Ward had only two things, a great chin and a monstrous left hook to the body... problem was, he had no skills to get it there against even b level opposition, he had no concept of defense, parrying, countering, no idea how to cut off the ring or apply pressure... he was literally JUST tough and nothing else, there was no defense and a completely limited one punch, no combination offense... put him in there with a speedster like judah and he will lose 100 times out of 100

I dont think much of a killer instinct is even needed when faced with a chinless softie like Wladimir... simple competent professionalism will do, and at the very least Vitali has that... I think you vastly overrate Wladimir's ability to defend against someone who really comes after him, I also think you fail to see how sensitive HIS skin is... Ray Mercer at 1200 years old with absolutely NOTHING to offer other than a jab, marked Wlad up significantly with just his tepid single jab responses... if that had been Mercer around 1992 or so, he would have been more bold and Wladimir would have been knocked out as sure as Tuesday follows Monday... Vitali is big, durable and tunneled, he throws those straight punches and he keeps it up, he contends even in a good division because while his flaws may mean a loss by decision or cuts against the very best, his toughness compliments his mass to make him formidable... Wladimir gets knocked out by literally dozens of heavyweights you could name... at some point, Vitali would eschew trying to box with his brother and force exchangesm Wladimir cant deal with that type of agression and he would fold

 

Again, I'm not making comparisons between anyone, or drawing analogies. Someone stated toughness can overcome talent, & I pointed to an instance where the opposite is easily accomplished as well, making the point toughness isn't necessarily more valuable to Boxing than skill & talent at all. No comparison is being made to Ali-Chuvalo or Judah-Ward in the sense those are similar scenarios to Klitschko-Klitschko, though I dispute the idea Chuvalo was light-years better than Ward, & I think you see the Klitschkos' as significantly closer in ability than I do. Big bro just merely straddles the line between slightly above-average & good...I lean toward him being good, but not by much. Junior, on the other hand, is a genuinely good fighter, though he is a good distance from being great, & always will be. I am far from in the habit of defending either of these two fairly limited fighters, but one looks clearly better to me than the other. Junior's arsenal is infinitely more formidable. His jab alone is better than anything big brother even dreamed of throwing, & why that jab wouldn't somehow be a factor against older bro's poor timing & lack of rhythmic offense, I don't know.

Say what you must (& I'm not inclined to disagree, mind) about Sam Peter being awful, but he is twice the puncher big brother ever was, & not dramatically less-schooled as a finisher than big bro, but junior should get some (some) credit for surviving that. It shows big brother isn't going to wipe him out as soon as he lands.

 

how do you reconcile one brother being completely annihlated and rendered helpless by Corrie Sanders and the other beating the piss out of him?

or one being dropped three times by Samuel Peter and the other comfortably beating him up?

Im not saying Vitali is a great fighter but his toughness is so superior to Wladimir's that it makes him a far more viable opponent for good heavyweight fighters and more than closes the gap caused by Wladimir's prettier skills (which I think you overrate to begin with, especially considering that his only defense against pressure is clinching)

 

::

 

In Fairness...Wlad had Peters closer to going OUT than Vitali did, though the manner of V's performance was far more comprehensive.
Vitali is simply, all round, a better fighter with better lateral movement, heavier hands, better perception, more confidence and far greater resistance to pressure.

How Ramonza can try to build up the old timers for being fat and tough, and then tear down Vitali for only being tough, is beyond me.

 

Which old-timers did I try to build up for being fat & tough?

Btw, CDogg, I don't consider Wladimir extremely skilled --- rather, I think his big brother is quite crude.

 

Galento.

 

Can you point me to the thread, so I can reply to the claim informed?

 

Joe Louis vs Klitschko thread, MM.

You basically had every bum that Louis stuggled with passed off as ultra durable.

 

Wossa go with the scouser in yer sig mate?

 

Excuse me?

He is from the North of Spain. Like me.

 

Arrrrgh eee lookz like da posterboy for NORDICISM to me!!!,..

Get yourself a REEEEEAAAAAAL Spaniard,.. like the lead singer for Dexy's Midnight Runners, Kev Rowland,..



Come On Eileen Irishman, come the fuck on.

 

quite crude perhaps, but quite a lot tougher and more willfull than his wet tissue-soft little brother

 

REED would Cheer for Wladimir...

REED's Gotten the Impression that Wlad Actually WANTS to Reign Supreme, w/Vitali Being the 1 Pushing the Whole "Reigning Brothers" Concept...REED Thinks Wlad WANTS to Escape the CONJOINED Relationship he has w/his Brother...

If Wlad DIDN'T Have a Suspect Chin, he'd SHIT All Over Vitali...Wlad's the BETTER Fighter in just about Every Other Regard, N REED's Opinion....



REED:kidcool:

 

Vitali has the edge in intangibles. He has a better sense of distance. He has a better defence. He is far more relaxed.

 

exactly, he can handle pressure, Wlad cant

 

It's why I always felt that the "athleticism" criterion was over-rated.

Athleticism under "optimum" circumstances is all well and good.

It's how you perform under fire that counts.

Vitali is always relaxed. It's why he can throw 80 punches a round. He is relaxed. Sometimes he is too relaxed.

I sincerely believe that Vitali's "awkwardness" is down to a combination of his size, his career in kick-boxing and his unique defence, rather than any lack of athleticism proper. The bottom line is he is one of the few fighters who blocks right hands with his shoulders and who employs clever subtle lateral movement. He rarely "runs", he just "steps" to one side. And he almost NEVER clinches.

I think he would bash Wladimir eventually, and would bash a lot of other guys too.

 

There were times in the Sosnowski fight where he looked like he was sleep-walkin' ,.. and he still remains an absolute sucker for a double-jab,... I'd really like to see somebody for once just continually apply a double-jab to his fat lips so we can see what his plan is to nullify the move, because it seems that the only time he really get's nailed is when somebody utilises the double J, Vitali doesn't appear to change up, but his opponents just stop it?..

 

His awkwardness, in my opinion, is down to him being a merely good (& barely, at that), not great, fighter.

Reed is right. In the huge majority of areas, I see his little brother as superior, & he, too, is short of being a great fighter.

 

Well, as I said before, I am loathe to taking lessons in greatness from any acolytes of Tony Galento. :shit:

What Vitali would do to Galento is nobodies business.

 

Nobody called Galento a great fighter, either.

 

Then how is Louis a great fighter? Great fighters don't get floored by UTTER DROSS.

 

That's a law of Boxing, now? The sport known as, "The Theater Of The Unexpected?"

 

So sayeth Larry Merchant.