The Verbal Flatulence Of Earnest Shavers.....

In his twelveth fight, Joe Frazier was fighting Oscar Bonavena. n his twelveth fight, Vitali Klitschko was fighting...? There is no cause for criticism there. None.

The jumper obviously refers to Frazier's first fight with Foreman --- as though either Klitschko wouldn't be absolute cannon-fodder for Big George. It would be a massacre.

 

Your assertions on Norton just aren't the true reality, though. They really aren't. There isn't one guy who knocked out Norton who couldn't do the same to Klitschko. There is only one fighter who knocked out a prime Norton --- a fighter who would have absolutely, comprehensively decimated Klitschko. Norton beat some punchers. He didn't fold as soon as he met anyone who could crack. That is similar to the notion of Sonny Liston, the eternal quitter, & just as unrealistic.

I haven't been here particularly long, & I don't know the background to it, I admit --- but you seem to have a real axe to grind in a lot of your posts regarding American fighters & Americans in general. Why is this?

 

What assertions have I made about Norton that are so removed from reality?

That he had a less than stellar chin? That he had 3 significant wins his entire career? That 2 of those were razor thin decisions? That the third was versus a shot and unfit opponent? That those three fighters bore no similarity whatsoever to Nortons traditional bugbear? That he had difficulty with bigger more powerful opponents? :dunno:

Not much of a statement really, when you bear in mind that lots of things can happen in a fight. Suffice it to say we saw Vitali absorb Lewis power shots, shots that would have put Norton into the Hall of Fame, via the coroners office. Could Do and Would Do are obviously two different states of affairs.

Yes, and there are NO fighters who have knocked out Klitschko. The man has faced some crippling hitters in his time. People make all the noises they want but a lot of the guys he fought could crack.

Some of them even enjoyed the rare indulgence of nailing him, but he never even went down, much less out.

Do not obsfuscate this point with noise about "resumes". Power is power. Klitschko has felt it, and shaken it off.

Norton? Well.... If Sam Peter or Lewis or Sanders ran their fist off Norton's head, the effect would be the same. The physical power exerted by any given man is the critical factor. Power, blunt trauma, is a matter of physical fact. The "state of the division" , the "good old days", the "golden era"...are matters of opinion and fancy.

HMS Hood had all the tradition and was the pride and darling of the Royal Navy. The Bismark was the product of a country with barely any coastline. How many Japanese can you fit on a British bayonet? You get the point.

Tradition, resume, history, popular perceptions.....bollocks. I am talking 6'8" 250lbs of meanness, sturdiness, unorthodoxy and power. I am talking a better trained crew with bigger guns and thicker belt armour. I am talking the realpolitik and science of boxing. You are talking tradition and faith. I'll put my money the gunpowder, you can put your money on your sword.

Who? Cooney? Foreman? Shavers? Garcia? Norton didn't fold as soon as he met someone who could crack. He folded as soon as he got hit by someone who could crack. He folded as soon as he couldn't keep off himself someone who could crack. He folded as soon as he was cracked. Vitali is kind of a cracker, in more ways than one.

 

The American press is full of shit and lots of Americans are full of shit.

I like certain American fighters, I am just not beyond thinking that they can't be beaten.

It's an opposition to a state of mind, rather than a State, if you see what i mean.

 

Back on the resume argument.

12th fight, 112th fight....the man had a tendency to get hit by right hands. Period.

Yes. Massacre. The same way Foreman "massacred"......Jimmy Young, Tommy Morrison. Just for openers.

 

Tommy Morrison? When Foreman was in his forties?

C'mon, Irishman, we both know that is just plain facetious, & has no bearing on the discussion.

 

Evander Holyfield, W12, when Foreman was in his forties?

Couldn't he at least floor him, like Lyles?

Are you telling me that the great Evan Fields failed to do any better than Tommy Morrison?

Or that Mike Grant and Briggs, two of the names on Lewis resume, barely did any better with Saverese than Foreman?

We can play that card all night.

 

bullshit, revisionist reactionary white resentment bullshit and you fucking know it

Frazier beat plenty of other good fighters besides THE BEST HEAVYWEIGHT WHO EVER LIVED... Oscar Bonavena (2x), Jerry Quarry (2x), Ellis, Chuvalo, Bugner and he beat the dog shit out of Buster Mathis, who at the very least was a terrific amateur, a clearly talented boxer and was undefeated and seen along with Frazier as a future player in the division at the time... The only guy who ever owned Joe Frazier was George Foreman, a guy who if you were trying to invent the perfect guy to put in against Joe Frazier would come out exactly like him...

Frazier was a great heavyweight, anybody who says otherwise is full of shit

 

here's the facts

DEAL with it

from basically Jim Jeffries up through the early 1990s, the heavyweight division was RULED WITH AN IRON FIST by American fighters... as boxing became something that could only be seen on pay TV, its popularity among Americans PLUMMETED, its exposure PLUMMETED, and big talented American kids from the types of places that usually produce the best fighters historically STOPPED BOXING and started doing other things which had since become far more popular in this country than Boxing, things like basketball and football... thus with a serious dearth of really talented prospects fighting out of America, big European guys FINALLY started to rise to the top... instead of one british guy here and there, you started to see several european countries represented and then you had the Klitschkos and guys like Irish could start jizzing their pants because for once they could live the wet dream of a black american guy getting pummelled by a big white guy... because this dream is so sweet to these guys, they will say anything in order to make what is currently passing for a heavyweight division seem like its chock full of terrific fighters, when the fact is that its very existence is owed to the fact that the talent pool that used to dominate it now has but a few puddles left...

Some things are just true

This would be like if boxing became a fringe sport in mexico and all of the sudden the Bantamweight rankings were filled to the brim with Japanese guys and some guy called Japanese2002/2003 was on here screaming at us about how Toyota Kawasaki would have killed Carlos Zarate or Rafael Marquez

wishful thinking based almost entirely on a wishful worldview

 

Sayme ol' contemporary vs old school and two way accusations of racism. Don't know why ya both get so reactionary,..and dont know what ya both aim to achieve, unless angry frustrating engagement on a forum is a spot of fun. "I express the reality!" "NO, I express the reality!" ..cause a beat b beat c beat d beat f,.. he was dropped by, he struggled against,.. etc, etc, etc,..

It's all mythical and impossible to argue about, not alot of point really.

 

well the bottom line is that for 90 years the heavyweight division was dominated by americans, the vast majority of them black

is it a coincidence that the division is now dominated by a couple of Ukrainian fellows at a time when there are hardly any young american heavyweight-sized athletes who box? I dont think so

Im not even saying that as a racist or non-racist remark, its not a reaction against anything, it is just the way it is

Im sure if Kenyans stopped participating in marathons, you would see a lot of the people who now finish in 15th place suddenly winning the races

 

Pretty well-put, actually. Those are indeed facts, not opinion.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Thanks, Ramonza

Im not rooting for anything here, just saying what IS

 

Well just like Irish believes that genetical advantages are a myth in raw sprints, and that Euro will one day win a 100 metre race, you proclaiming this for a sport like boxing, is equally full of shit. You should learn about the genetic difference between a west african and an east african, in boxing you need all sorts of individual strengths to win, boxing is not a 100 metre sprint excersize of fast twitch muscle fibres, speed advantage is however one of the best advantages you can have in striking contests, but if you dont have the stamina, the chin, the toughness or intelligence, it wont amount to much without other tangibles. At heavyweight, with such large frames these days, you need a strong heart, core strength and stamina to carry yourself around, then an equal mix of fast twitch fibres and intelligence to box. The Klitschko's happen to have those things, white people can have a biased measure of fast twitch fibres aswell, Martinez and Calzaghe are of western european descent for example, Bute is of south western euro descent,..these people are irrefuteably quick and athletic,.. it's not 'impossible' ,..and your stance on race, is as equally contraversial as Irish's may be. :nono::nono:

Still and all,.. it was honourable for you to admit it, it's better if a person has these views to just bust out and say it, instead of spinning re-traceable content around the core point. I sure as hell wish more people would do this.

 

keep dreaming

there is a reason you could count on one hand the number of serious heavyweight contenders who weren't American over that entire time period, the reason that I stated above. Its staring you right in the face.

What, all of the sudden European heavyweights CAUGHT UP?

nah, they just suddenly found there were no more big strong black americans waiting there to beat them up

but enjoy the delusion

nothing controversial about what is clearly staring everyone in the face if they simply look at the last 100 years

thats a whole lot different than Irish wishing white people could run really fast, which is just that... a WISH, unsupported by a shred of anything

Ive got 90 years of American dominance of the Heavyweight division to support my argument

and this isnt a rah rah America thing either, I could give a shit... its just a fact

 

Dreaming?.. Well the nightmare is happening for you I can clearly see,..and you can no longer point the finger at the Irishman, and accuse him of precisely the thing that you are guilty of I'm afraid, neither can ANYBODY who shares your theory, this exhibition of core motives, is a very nieve dichotomy. Boxing relies on a mix of individual strengths, not every white fighter is slow, not every black fighter is fast, etc, etc, etc,.. if you have a potent mix of strengths, you will suceed in boxing and it doesn't fucking matter what race you are. South-Asians can't fight,.. then along came Amir Khan,.. Polynesians can't fight, along came Tua, Asians can't fight, along came Pacquiao,..Chinese can't fight, then one knocked off a cherished black american amatuer at the olympics,.. you are going through a nightmare, and gritting your teeth and hanging on, but perhaps it's you who should wake up on this bitterly smered supremecist theories, get 'race' off the brain, and appreciate the make-up of individuals.

 

Ahhhhhhhhhh..............we got us a winner here, for sure. We got us a winner. Big Mr "There is no Jesus" has a few day-dreams of his own!!!:cheer:

90 years of American Dominance?

What's an American??? :dunno:

A mixed-race European African Lithuanian ?

You know, for a man who put's his faith in the science, you got some pretty fanciful notions sire.

 

Yup!!! The pus is drawn!! The pus is drawn!! The bloody admixture is poulticed out of the raging Jeebus denier!!

Football?? Football???

This is right up there with the "Once African Kid's Start Playing Soccer It's Over For Europe" nonsense.

You still have to be able to hit the back of the net from a penalty in the dying moments of the biggest game of your life.

Pressure situations cannot be resolved by having an abundance of fast-twitch muscle, or by having curly hair, or by having dark skin.

The physical is necessary, but it does not complete the picture. Hand speed is nothing without mind speed. Mind speed is nothing without strong legs. The legs are nothing without the desire and the desire is worth fuck all if you are a thalidomide baby.

Lebron James has the physical tools, externally. How thick is his cranium? Does he have enough fat around his kidneys and spleen? Is the man intelligent....so intelligent that he might quit on his stool rather than attempt to overcome impossible odds in any given moment, preferring to retire and try again later??? :dunno:

You refer to this American dominance....? Well......Jack Sharkey's real name was..... Joseph Paul Zukauskas

How black was Ali? He had an Irish Grand-Daddy you know. Just like you.

 

I said Vitali could beat Ken Norton. I said Ken Norton struggled with stronger, bigger, harder hitting men. Throw in a chin and some brains, and Kenny is in real trouble. Somehow, I don't quite know how, your buttons have been pushed, and your true anxiety has been unleashed.

For openers, it is not dominated by a couple of Ukrainians. There is also Povetkin, the exhibitionist. There is also the young negro fellow, David Haye, the reverse Tommy Morrison.

If this situation is so transient, and so passing, and so ephemeral and short-lived then why, in the immortal words of Eddie Murphy hypothetically quoting Richard Pryor, don't you have a coke and a smile and SHUT THE FUCK UP?

FLIP MODE!! FLIP MODE!!!! FLIP MODE TIME!!!

I am sure that Ali and Frazier and Norton were only so legendary because there were 500 million people in the USSR and CUBA that didn't fight as professionals.

And the guys running the marathons with the Kenyans and coming 15th would now come 12th or 13th if the Kenyans pulled out.

Your marathon example is poor. Marathon's are very unilateral in their make up and come nowhere near to mirroring the layer-cake of emotions and talents and intelligences needed to compete at boxing.

 

Frazier's complete underration on these boards continues unabated I see...

He was susceptible to anyone who threw uppercuts. Thats why he was a tennis ball whenever he faced Foreman. Otherwise, Frazier was as duarble as he would need to be. Especially to someone who throws as many arm punches as Vitali does.

MTF

 

Beat me to it. :bears:

Frazier was absolutely tailor made for Foreman, style-wise. Anyone else though was a different matter. It's strange how his clear victory over an undefeated Ali has been almost completely fogotten around these parts.

Frazier would have smashed Vitali into little pieces.

MTF

 

If Frazier was good enough to smash Vitali into little pieces, then he would have done likewise to Foreman, who easier to find, easier to hit.

Thank you for noting that styles play a vital role in how fights pan out.

That was my original premise, that the styles of the two men play a greater role than their resume. What resume did James Douglas have pre-Tokyo? That jab more than made up for any gaps in his resume.

Foreman had no real resume before he fought Frazier, but the styles more than made up for it.

Foreman was a noted underdog, and Frazier, like Norton vs Vitali, had that win over Ali. Foreman was also an underdog versus Norton, rated thus by none other than Ali himself.

Styles mad all that irrelevant. Frazier could have won that fight if he wasn't such a sucker for a big, slow, dumb right hand thrown by a man who knew how to throw them.

My original premise, before CDoggs Commie Peril came to the fore, was that they style of Klitschko, with his size, power, unorthodoxy, solid ammy creds and chin and grit, are too much for the smaller Ken Norton, who traditionally lost versus powerful opponents that he couldn't keep off him.

Question: taking the previously asserted theory, that {a} white guys from Europe are only getting a look in because the division is weak and {b} that the division has historically been dominated by Americans...then...why has some shitty but more dominant American not asserted himself over the division?? :dunno:

By the CDoggs rationale.....Chris Arreola should be champion. Weak American being > Weak Euro etc etc etc.

 

I have no interest in debating the nuances of white/black heavyweights. As it goes, and as usual with you ::, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle...

I disagree totally, however, with your ssertion that Vitali is stylistically anything like 1970's Foreman. Foreman was all uppercuts whilst Vitali throws lots of straight-ish arm punches. The arm punches are effective whereas Foreman's uppercuts were devestating.

Styles do make fights and that is why Frazier couldn't do a thing with Foreman because he threw the one punch that negates his low, swinging, cross-face defense. Vitali doesn't throw those punches much of at all; he would try and stand tall, work off his lab and rely on straighter shots. That wouldn't be effective at all against a guy like Frazier because he would be small enough to get under/inside and work Vitali on the ropes. And Vitali can't fight inside for shit.

MTF

 

They are few and far between but almost always worth reading.

 

In the immortal fashion of Hannibal Lecter.....Quote Marcus Aurelius.....well not quite, but Quote Manny Steward and Roy Jones Junior....note their alluding to the uppercuts thrown by Vitali in his fights with, just for openers, Chris Arreola and Danny Williams.

Uppercuts did a lot of damage versus two men who weighed upwards of 50lbs more than Joe Frazier did.

Of course, that's cos they were fat {Williams was not fat}

Statement of Fact: Vitali has the uppercut, has thrown it, has had good returns against big guys, guys a lot taller than Joe Frazier.

Of course, this is to be distracted from the original, narrow, concise premise: of how Vitali would or would not beat Ken Norton. Once again, it seems, the matter has been obfuscated, with Ken Norton being replaced by Superman, and Vital's chances then being reassessed.

I never asked how Vitali would do vs Frazier, whom I think he has a chance of beating. I merely asked how he would do with Joe Fraziers sparring partner.

Vitali does throw that wide right. He has always thrown it. Ironically, with "improvements" he has neglected to throw it quite as much as he should. But he has always had that sweeping right hand.

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Sorry for the Daggel Dooseldorf commentary. However poor the opponent was, the swinging, clubbing, head-wrecking Foremanism's, and I don't mean verbal, are there to see.

As I say, the man has ironically departed from this style in the name of improvement, though advancing years and injuries probably mean he needed to develop a more cerebral style anyways.

 

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I post the above video not with a view to suggesting it is proof of anything other than the following: Vitali can and does throw wide rights and uppercuts, with both hands, to the head and the body.

If you miss the punches the commentary will pick them up for you. ::

EDIT: look where Williams right glove is for large parts when he is in close: right under and across his own chin. Sign of a guy who has been hit with uppercuts.

 

I don't doubt that Vitali can throw them. Rather that he tends not to throw them enough, or with the ferocious and necessary intent required to beat Frazier. Certainly he hasn't thrown that type of shot with any regularity for a long time.

The point is that Vitali throws ocassional shots of the type required to dismantle Joe. Foreman throws almost exclusively the exact shots required.

As for Vitali-Norton, it would be a pick 'em for me. :dunno:

MTF

 

Well I pick Ken to get hit by the right and do the old rope-squat, just one more time.:egypt:::

I pointed out that if Vitali had even the slightest hint of notice about what sort of a guy Ken Norton was, he would go and throw those shots right from the get-go. With Sanders, Vitali was on notice, and behaved accordingly. With Norton, I just think he would have had no regard for the guy.

I would also hazard that his right uppercut would have more effect on a 200lb Joe Frazier than a lot of people like to think.

I regard Frazier as a special kind of fighter in terms of his stamina, bravery and overall pressing game. I just figure the man was also sucker for the right hooker-cut, a punch which he never responded well to.

I don't regard Vitali as some sort of a superman. He does have stamina issues, as anyone of that height and weight will. He seems oafish at times, deceptively so. But he is a dangerous man, a danger derived not just from size, but also from unpredictability, unorthodoxy, craft and cuteness.

 

A consistant double-jab from Ali and Holmes could pose problems for Vitali,.. but I agree that Vitali's style would be a nightmare for the dwarfed Frazier, a hilariously horrible style infact.