The Verbal Flatulence Of Earnest Shavers.....

Ali has the handspeed, for sure. Holmes? He would be reaching a lot.

Holmes is a good example of what I have been talking about. Holmes was not as strong, not as powerful, and not tall or imposing as Foreman.

Holmes, however, had that jab, and had genuine 15 round stamina and an excellent chin.

I don't think Cooney is as good or as awkward and unpredictable as Klitschko, much the lesser fighter, but it is a good indicator of how well he would stack up with Vitali, who is, it has to be said, harder to hit than Cooney.

 

I don't know wether Cooney was Irish or Italian, but I do understand your point.

 

Irish or Italian :dunno:

 

Cooney looked Italian to me,.. but sometimes, Irish look Italian aswell,.. especially in america for some reason....:notallthere:

 

Well....I mean, I see an opportunity for a get-out clause here, and I might just take it!!

 

No trick for treats, no trick for treats,..really,.. I thought Cooney was Irish, but looked like an Italian,.. but it appears.. from your answer.. maybe he was neither?.. :scratcher:

 

Irish vs. Ringo

Jerry was only 5'10, and Bonavena was bigger and stronger, it would have been a rough fight for him, but Oscar, or Oscar's people, wouldn't fight him.

Same goes with Joe Bugner, Quarry finally did get a fight with Jack Bodell after he had beaten Bugner, and Quarry polished him off in a minute.

I have thought about Quarry vs. Bonavena, and I still have some of the old World Boxing and International Boxing where Quarry says the guy wouldn't fight him, "Everybody knows I can beat Oscar Bonavena, including him, and that's why he won't fight me."

Bonavena had even worse luck that Jerry did in and out of the ring, we all know what happened to him when he fucked with the wrong guy, no matter how big and tough you are, you can't beat a bullet.

I did think that Ringo got the short end of the stick vs. Patterson, and may have won the first Frazier fight as well.

But even though he did a job on Joe, and Joe whipped Jerry twice, that does not mean Ringo would have beaten Jerry as styles make fights.

Quarry was his own worst enemy with his Irish temper, when he lost it, which was frequently, he blew his fight plan and went punch for punch.

The fight would have been a pick 'em as far as I am concerned, but both guys would have to have been at their absolute best in order to defeat the other, and Oscar didn't like to train hard as he was a whore chaser, and that ultimately is what got him murdered.

That fight between two extremely tough, volatile, and free spirited fighters is a toss up, IMO.

Karl

 

"Born into a blue collar Irish-Catholic[1] family on Long Island,"

:nono: ^ Nice one, Sean.

 

I wrote kind of a half essay about this a while ago... not sure if i ever posted it here. Basically I never realized just how dominant this country was over the heavyweight division until i looked at it.

For example, using the linear heavyweight title: there was a total of one legitimate non-American champion (Johanssen) who held the title – for 11 months and lost it in his very next fight – from the span of June 1934 to March 1998 until Lennox Lewis of England beat Shannon Briggs by 5<SUP>th</SUP> round KO.

 

Well there is a simple explanation for that.

For around 200 years preceeding the advent of the heavyweight division, every ethnic group was dragged, one way or the other, into what would become known as the United States of America.

This is significant for a glut of reasons, some more important than the other.

1. Immigrants arrive in waves, with each wave being obliged to fight it's way outward and upward, usually from under the boot of the immediately preceeding wave and the status quo.

2. Immigrant waves are usually comprised of engaging, outward and risk-taking individuals.

3. Immigrant waves interact. This causes ethnic friction, which is a good ticket seller. Again we see how easily these people fit the fight game.

4. America had a massive industrial base, a massive proletariat, and thus the demand for fighters and the concomitant source, fighters who represented both the nation, overall, and the ethnic-subgroup in particular, was always strong. Because there was more money, there was greater incentive for the impoverished of both the agrarian and industrial sectors.

5. Racial inter-breeding, between both different races and different ethnicity of the same race, does throw up a very small number of superior athletes. This is a minor consideration but Ali, Ray Robinson, for instance, were both mixed-race, as was Joe Louis. He didn't even qualify for black. He had to settle for brown.

6. America is a young country. Back then it was even younger, and lacked the priggish sentiments of the European Continent. America welcomed everyone to do anything, and this suits fighting just fine. What the Victorians had tried to ban the Americans turned into a money-spinner.

7. Post-War Political Status: America was in it's pomp in 1950.....Europe was shattered and the Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc, the current bugbear of American fighters, was a closed book. Cuba soon followed suit and the greatest amateurs of their era- Savon, Stevenson, Igor Vysotsky, etc, were all denied professional careers. Others like Lazslo Papp were denied meaningful pro careers.



But...we are at the end of the so-called American Century. Germany is enjoying 2.2% economic growth at a time of global economic stagnation. Her pristine cities have fostered powerful gyms and promotional outfits like Sauerland, Universum, even the sweaty Turks are in on the act. The East is providing the muscle to man these machines and the net product is a crop of very adequate fighters, right at a time when America has exhausted her ghetto's and sanitized her social outlook.

 

Except, in the case of the Klitschko's, they were spoilt little prats living under a good military salary in a functional family,.. they are intelligent, ambitious, receptive of education, and would have lead quite successful, ordinary lives. But, Vitali happenned to like a bit of a swish up, and took to kickboxing/boxing..and lil Wlad followed suit... :tick: ...not quite the mould out of the poor social and economic produce,.. you misleading bastard. :nono:

 

The Klitschko's enjoyed one fraction of the wealth and comfort that children of a similar ranked man would have in the United States. Yes...Kyrgyzstan....that bastion of moral and intellectual stimulation. Furthermore, their participation in professional sports would have remained a pipe dream without old Lecherous Lech rocking rocking the boat in Golota Land.

 

Well, from thier sound psychological demeanors, our knowledge of thier academic success, languages learned, political involvement, and the mere fact that they're 7ft tall, suggests they were well nourished of the mind, body and soul,.. Healthy childhoods, healthy upbringing, healthy life-style, (They didn't need an Atari to avoid the poverties of life as children)...evidently, I would have to say,.. they didn't exactly roll off the blue print of your unionised Irish factory... :nono:

 

And Golota? Wrecker of Bowe, Hero Of Brooklyn, Saint Chicago himself.....??? Would he be have been fighting pro in 1996, doing his bit to expose the shortfall of racial reciprocity amongst our African brethren...if the wall was still up in polite Berlin??

He looked well fed. Maybe he kosher lamb joints stole from the deli in 1980's Wroclaw.

 

Okay, but that doesn't explain why the last dominant heavyweight before those "couple of Ukrainian fellows" was born in Britain...or why a boxer from Kazakhstan won the Val Barker trophy in 1996....or even why you've seen non-American basketball players win the NBA MVP, Rookie of the Year or drafted first overall.

 

Hear yee, hear yee, when the soviet testicles busted, alot of wrigglers slithered there way back into Europe yes, and also crawled down the ropes of ships onto american soil aswell where they inflated into full grown toads. But, if the Irish factory blue-print, consists of Hatton experiencing irrepairable hoodizisation because a murder took place 10 kilometres away in the next suburb,.. or Calzaghe feeling a brief sense of isolation at school because he said he would be champion one day and nobody would believe him,..then there's not really that much of a reason to lick ya fingers when ya turn the page, is there? :nono:

 

The simple reality is that, as Nat Fleischer noted, when you have a talent drive a la the "Great White Hope" campaign of the early 20th century, it seems inevitable that one will come across some fairly useful fighters.

Now take the same principle and apply it to 20 different countries comprising 500 million persons and the same holds true.

Now couple the population explosion with a ready and waiting entity like Germany which can polish these guys into reputable fighters......and hey..there you have it.

Furthermore, it is NO coincidence that Lyakhovich got fat and soft. He lives in America, full-time.

 

Da Williams sistas only good coz, da competition crap, and will continue that way until they go away, and things, get, 'right' again.

 

Precisely. And clay was invented by whitey to make the Williams look bad. Same way he invented ice, to make sure he could win at something.:Lok:

 

The Williams sisters came from the Irish blue print of poverty to play the sophisticated, wealthy, civillised game of tennis. The sport of Queens.

 

That makes sense, everybody knows the only reason a baseball player born in Kasugai, Japan is the record holder for hits in an MLB season is because Americans don't play baseball anymore.

 

For the first time ever......you have started to bore me.

Williams Sisters only win titles cos it is such a weak era. If they were men they wouldn't get out of the first round vs Federer.

 

Seriously? His shtick only started to bore you now?

 

It's just a healthy defragmentation Irishman, a healthy defragmentation, not the type where a stranger lures a child with candy, more like, 'working together to lure the child with candy',..TWO pieces of candy.. hno:

 

Ritualisation, is no schtick,.. me and the Irishman will have a black-belt each one day.

 

On the General Discussion board, it's shtick.

 

Rock and a hard place,... Broader and more personalised subjects are horrifying about TAA,.. and serious boxing engagement, leads to seeing everybodies inner demons,.. therefore,.. you gotta find a zone to nestle in :nono:.

 

That doesn't mean it's not boring.

 

Golota is certainly not a good example of an excellent heavyweight. And one of the worst examples of heart and mental toughness you could ever bring up.

 

I'm sorry I quoted your post earlier, but I had no idea your account was my responsibility source-shark,.. I can't click the ignore button, or pm the moderators for you.