I just re-watched some of his middleweight title fights. I wanted to know what apart from his ring record made him such a great fighter and would he be the middleweight champion if he fought now (if you want to call this an agenda, go ahead). Here are some thoughts I had - To me, he looked surprisingly slow considering his reputation. He was a quick puncher of course, but not in the class of Jones, Leonard ect. However, he was usually clearly faster than his opponents - His punches seemed to carry a devastating power: his punching form is not always perfect, but he gets his body behind shots extremely well. - His timing is excellent by any standard, which is one big reason to why his punches had such an effect. - Sometimes his combinations were looping if you compare them to Hopkins, Hagler and other master technicians. Not many opponents could take advantage of it though - There was much more clinching in his fights than I originally remembered. - He usually looks a bit smaller than his opponents. Anybody dis/agree with some of these takes?
I'd agree on these points, however on his wildness and looping punches : it's rare he gets hit at those moments. And I don't think it's down to the guys he's fighting sucking, I think it's because he was judicious with when he'd launch such 'wild' attacks. If you watch Arguello you'll notice that his lead hand placement varies constantly based on the others guys body angle, basically judging when the opponents in a position to throw a hard right hand. Guys on that level are responding to what YOU do & where you're positioned. You see a similar illusion to Robinson's wildness these days, IMO, with Arthur Abraham's who looks like a cave man but is actually very calculating in the way he sets those attacks up in how he's reading his opponents patterns and reactions to different things he does (Abrahams real weakness is his window shutter defence which people praise him for). I think similarly with Robinson he could judge by his opponents body placement when he had windows to launch attacks which were ostensibly wild and looping. Sometimes, like you very correctly point out with Vitali, things look all wrong but you have to look at the consistent results to see what's really going on there.
This is correct and I am all for results, so none of this changes my opinion of that Robinson is the best fighter ever since he had the best career. I am not sure if he could have used similar tactics against the very best (same goes for Vitali of course) but in his fights nothing suggests otherwise
The thing is... career wise, it's hard to argue against Robinson. But head to head...as I've said before...there are many fighters since his time that would have been capable of beating him. Robinson was great and did all things well, but he certainly had limitations that could have been exploited by some of teh super talented fighters than have existed since his time (Leonard, Jones, Mayweather etc)
Bill Cayton tried measuring Ali's jab to SRR's by using frames of footage. It took SRR about eight frames of film to shoot his jab and it took Ali about seven.
Ali flicked his jab, Ray jolted it with his hips behind it. Apples and oranges, to be fair. And also the question arises of what footage of Robinson was used - 99% of the existing footage of Ray is from when he was past his absolute prime and had slowed a step. But basically yeah, I think prime Ali was faster. I think Ray was about as fast as the version of Ali Frazier fought the first time. Ray had DLH type speed, not Roy Jones or prime Ali type speed. But he also had Hearns/Foster/Louis type power to go with it. And Hagler esque punch resistance. Quite a unique all round package of physical gifts.
It'd be interesting to see how SRR did in today's landscape where fighters hand-pick their opponents, fight not to lose, shy away from rematches, and generally seem uncomfortable with the profession they've chosen.
Jones was a different weight class than a prime Robinson anyway so this can't be debated fairly. Leonard I would give a legitimate shot at beating Sugar Ray, but I think Robinson's harder punching would get him a decision. But not Floyd. PBF either loses a clear UD or gets KO'd by weltwerweight Robinson.
These I don't quite agree with. Robinson had great power as I mentioned before but IMHO slightly less than Hearns or Foster. Robinson had of course the perfect punch KO and some other quick finishes but not that many considering his amount of fights. Also, I wouldn't count his punch resistance quite up there with Hagler or Lamotta. Personally I do think there are a couple of middleweights and welters who could have beaten him, but considering how much time has gone from his days, the small number of them just proves for his unique talent
Never stopped by punches in 200 odd fights. Im not sure what else you can do to prove your chin. And IMO the highlight reel of KOs shows upper echelon power. Dude's flying across the ring, being spun around, knocked cold by 4" shots, just devastating. But there's not too much point arguing between As & A+s.
Blah..Blah...all you wanted to do with this post is say MAYWEATHER is one of the guy who could beat Robinson. But NO chance
I wouldn't be so confident saying Floyd has 'no chance' of beating anyone at welter or below, Robinson included.
Not to hate on Floyd, but he's only beaten one legitimate Welterweight threat. He was a "Sugar" and an old one at that. Robinson was beating full fledged Middleweights like LaMotta, when he was still filling out as a Welterweight.
Sure, just saying I can't rule out a guy with Floyd's skill set beating anyone on a given day. I'd pick Robinson by stoppage for the record.
He is the most skilled fighter since Pernell Whitaker...but he is also awesome at ducking top competition.
One thing I always say about Robinson --- there ain't a man alive or dead he couldn't punch with, & that includes Hearns. There can be no end to how important it is to emphasise the context, for instance, of his KO over Fullmer --- people still don't respect what it meant for Robinson to win that fight in the fashion he did. Fullmer was an absolutely rock-solid, 25-year-old, fully-fledged Middleweight, on the cusp of a HOF career when a Robinson a few years shy of forty knocked him cold. It's a sorely under-rated feat, & unquestionably his best-ever KO, for mine (including the LaMotta stoppage).
I think we can anticipate the next 5 posts of this exchange before they happen. Floyd has both his positive and negative aspects and everyone here's familiar with both them and everyone's opinions on 'em!:giggle:
I think the most ironic thing about this Robinson/Mayweather comparison - "Sugar Ray" was known as a notoriously difficult negotiator during his time, yet he got fights done. Fought guys who gave him diffuculty the first time around, over and over again and was incredibly active for a guy of any era. He may have threatened to pull out of fights repeatedly if he didn't get what he wanted............but in the end, he always ended up in the ring with his opponent.
Shows though that he had the potential to be just as much as an ass at the negotiation table as Floyd can be....if the politics of teh day (and teh MONEY) were as it is now. If Floyd was fighting for PEANUTS like they were then...I'm sure his fght count would be double what it is. We have to consider the times.
