Forget Toney-Couture and Mercer-Sylvia...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bAFU7nGyVM

why doesnt anyone talk about this fight. laverne clark average boxer at best, fights shonie carter who at the time didnt have that many mma fights, but still had his grappling background. and with nearly the same amount of experience knocked out future ufc champion matt serra.

just saying:Thumbs:

people are quick to point out mercer-sylvia/ williams-sakuraba etc etc and while i agree mma>boxing as far as who wins in a fight, its nowhere near 90-10, especially considering the vastly deeper talent pool in boxing (although that is subject to change)

 

People probably don't talk about it because it was 13 years ago. The same reason people don't talk about Gracie-Jimmmerson, because it's ancient.

Plus Jimmerson, Clark, Williams etc were never NEAR the level of Toney and Mercer.

By the way, the Clark fight was Shonie's very first MMA fight so he virtually was no more of an MMA fighter than Clark was.

I understand what you're trying to do, but bringing up Shonie Carter in his MMA debut, probably not a great comparison.

 

Not a good comparison to Toney, who was also making his MMA debut?

 

Toney got destroyed because he was a fat slob taking on an MMA veteran.

Shonie Carter versus Clark was basically an MMA debut for both guys.

And I realize you have to follow me around like my shadow, but WBC asked WHY no one was talking about Carter-Clark.

And I think I answered his question, neither Clark or Carter were relevant in 1997 so why would anyone be talking about them 13 years later?

 

i disagree, everybody always brings up gracie-jimmerson which was obviously not a legitimate fight in the first place.

carter had over 30 amateur fights and many "exhibitions" where he fought in chicago nightclubs basically real fights.

laverne clark even did good against matt hughes.

this is classic grappler vs boxer. just didnt turn out as most would expect. easily as relevant a match-up as gracie-jimmerson. even moreso in the grapplers favor.

and id say rubin williams/clark were as good reps of boxing as mercer and toney when they entered mma fat, untrained, and shot as boxers.

 

Not following, it's called having an ongoing discussion. When I start counting the number of posts you make you can talk to me about stalking.

I disagree that no one talks about Gracie/Jimmerson. I just watched Toney/Couture for the first time, and after the fight Rogan said "What was proven in UFC 1 is still true in UFC 119" or something along those lines. It's simply false advertising.

All that was proven in UFC 1 was Gracie can beat some bum who didn't want to be there.

 

Jesus Christ this is getting old. You guys are seriously retarded.

 

You forget to mention the many times these guys were stopped.

You do realize that these guys failed miserably in the sport, right?

It's funny that you handpick a couple of instances where they did pull off a miracle. You fail to mention the many times it did not go as well.

 

Dude, he also had amateur wrestling and judo experience and probably had a few street fights and might even have been slapped by his mom as well. The bottom line is that MMA fans don't ignore Carter-Clark, it just didn't involve anyone worth noting.

And both guys are actually examples that everyone has a punchers chance. Clark caught Carter and Carter caught Serra. Stop the presses.

And your not honestly saying that Williams and Clark are as big as Toney and Mercer, right? The only reason Mercer or Toney even get mention is because they were HUGE on the boxing side. If James Toney had the career of Clark, trust me, no one would give 2 shits about Couture beating him.

Damn.

 

what am i handpicking? rubin williams never won.

im simply pointing out that it goes both ways thats all. those fights werent miracles in the slightest.

 

Not for nothing, but you do realize someone like Marcus Davis is a better example to your argument.

At least he's a guy that was a pro boxer and then had a successful MMA career. He too won his MMA debut. Obviously he never won or will win a title but he had some good wins and was a Top 10 UFC Welterweight a short while back.

 

Yep that was absolutely ridiculous. As if that fight "proved" anything.

Art Jimmerson. :atu:

I'm not sure how many even hard core boxing fans had heard of him before the fight with Gracie.

I know i hadn't.

 

Actually I had. But only because he fought guys like Harding and Andries. Oh, and because I'm a boxing fan.

But by the same token, had you heard of boxer LaVerne Clark before, after or during his MMA bout with Shonie Carter?

 

No, i haven't heard of either. (although the name Shonie Carter sounds familiar) I'm not saying that fight "means" anything in an MMA vs Boxer content either though.

A lot of MMA fan boys like to dismiss Sylvia vs Mercer because Tim was out of shape. I think that's bullshit. If an MMA fighter has so many advantages over a boxer the shape they are in should be of little relevance. Remember all they have to do is simply "go for a leg and the fight is over".

That's nonsense.

On the flip side i'm not blaming Couture's domination of Toney on his excess flab either. James could have weighed in @ 195 and chiseled. He still would have suffered the same fate. Most people thought it was a mismatch well before the weigh-in.

If Pacquiao were to knock out Edgar tomorrow i wouldn't be chest pumping that it "proves" boxing is superior simply because it wouldn't to anybody with a brain. (not saying that's what you're doing in the opposite btw) Although i'm sure a lot of idiots out there would think it does.

In a fight it comes down more to the individuals fighting and their styles and abilities. By "styles" i just don't mean solely boxing vs mma guy. Styles make fights within boxing yet they are competing in the same sport.

When it comes down to fight time it's only two guys in the ring. Having superior striking or a better ground game doesn't guarantee anything.

There are a lot of boxers that i believe could do very well in MMA, while many others would fair no better than Toney did.

 

you make good points. Tim lost due to a stupid gameplan, standing with a seasoned boxer with good power.

However, you cannot tell me that his coming in 50 lbs heavier than normal and unmotivated didn't effect his performance.

 

That fight didn't last long enough for conditioning to play a part. Also I don't think Sylvia planned to stand with Mercer, he just got bombed out before he could get anything done.

Shit happens.

 

Bullshit. If you have ever boxed before, you would know that the extra weight doesn't only effect stamina, but speed and mobility as well.

And yes...he did plan on standing with Mercer. That's why they had an agreement prior to keep it standing.

 

I think I said in some other thread that Sylvia is the perfect match up for a boxer making a cross over to MMA. Sylvia fashions himself a boxer in the octagon. He used his long reach and decent stand up skills to win in the UFC. Most of those wins came against guys with very basic boxing.

He would fail against most boxers in MMA I think.

It is all about match ups.

 

Agreed.

Although Mayweather is at worst #2 P4P in boxing, i think there are a lot of guys he'd school in a boxing ring do much better than him in MMA.

 

That was changed last minute and it was a full MMA fight.

 

If I remember, it was changed to an MMA fight, but they both agreed on keeping it standing. If I remember Mercer has even acknowledged this. I remember Jens Pulver coming out in an interview saying Tim has no idea what he is getting into if he wants to keep this standing. That Tim should fight an MMA fight, because that is what he is. Ray is a boxer and that level of standup fighting is on another level.

 

Even if that's the case i think Syliva would have had a hard time getting into a full mount position looking for a triangle within 5 seconds.

 

I know. But I think they both agreed to keep it standing after that.

 

How long did it take the great takedown master Kimbo to get Ray to the canvas?

 

Regardless of Tim's ability to get a take down or secure a submission, there is NO question that was his only chance to beat Mercer.

Hell, even Kimbo ,who came into MMA as a street fighting slugger, knew to immediately rush Mercer and remove the stand up from the equation.

Tim Sylvia couldn't beat Mercer in standing battle on his best day and Mercer's worst.

 

Did you hear the interview with Jens before this fight (that I was talking about in my first post) Jens pretty much said exactly what I posted and in a very nice way, said Tim is a moron if he stands with Ray.

 

tim sylvia was saying in interviews before the fight that he would show mercer what mma is all about, and that he wouldn,t make it a punching only match.

That excuse is BS

 

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irrevelant, it was an exhibition, it would be like considering what happened in sparring, plus if you listen to the video, Mercer claims he was setup

 

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Could Ray have made a bigger punk out of Sylvia? He made him look scared at this press conference and then knocks him like an amateur. It's amazing Tim ever had the nerve to get back in the cage.

Tim's just an idiot for EVER thinking he was going to start a boxing career and use Ray Mercer would be a stepping stone. Damn, out boxing wrestlers and BJJ guys in MMA really went to his head.

:kick: