Is MMA the closest thing to true professional wrestling?

Did you read the entire thread, Rydell?

 

Hi TFK!

 

Buddy, you do understand that Steve isn't really interested in debating the origins of the sport. He is simply trying to diminish MMA by implying that it is an off shoot of Professional Wrestling.

I honestly like the guy, but wish he didn't feel the need to try and bash the sport of MMA at every turn. It really detracts from a good MMA forum.

 

Honestly, I wasn't trying to diminish anything. The roots in pro wrestling are factual, especially in Japan. I didn't even mention the fact that Shamrock, Severn and Don Frye are/were all pro wrestlers.

I find it facinating, personally... looking back the history of something that's evolved so quickly. So I'm quite well read on it, as a fan of the early days of UFC, PRIDE, Vale Tudo (not the term, but the events, Vale Tudo 1994, 1995 etc... there is a difference that I think has been lost here)

To deny present day MMA's roots in pro wrestling is to deny MMA's roots in PRIDE. None of what I'm writing is flaming, it's all fact that's readily available to anyone who wants to brush up on their history.

And yes, before you come back with Vale Tudo and the Gracie family in the 1920s... I know all about it. And I recognize it's influence on cage fighting today.

 

fascinating...now please shutup I'm trying to follow a good debate on this thread.

 

I have no issue with the notion that MMA as we see it today has roots in professional wrestling. But that wasn't your original assertation. You original indicated that current MMA is a direct "off shoot" of Pro Wrestling and "it's all tied to Pro Wrestling in Japan in the 80s'".

That is as nonsensical as me saying "it's all tied to the Gracie family." Sure they played a part as did former Pro Wrestlers in Japan and elsewhere, but the sport as we know it today is a combination of the DNA of many species and it is not "all" Japanese Pro Wrestling.

Again, I don't think you and I disagree on this. I think you made, what you called, 'an aggressive' initial comment that was too broad a generalization.

But I am still convinced that your intent was to discredit MMA by linking it closely to Professional Wrestling. I hope I am wrong.

 

Do they get paid to do it ??

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that was your original point. Guys that spend their lives in competitive wrestling have nowhere to go beyond college. And MMA gives them an opportunity to apply their craft professionally AND competitively.

 

Your first three paragraphs were discussed yesterday. I thought we were past that?

It is closely linked to pro wrestling. Look at the most popular fighter in the UFC as the most glaring recent example.

Whether that discredits MMA or not is up to the individual.

 

Ya that is what I was saying you're right. I was under the impression that UGTBK is saying that in his homeland they have some sort of wrestling (real wrestling) competitions for money?

 

:::::::::atu:

 

Again, choosing to show the link between pro wrestling and MMA by citing Lesnar as an example also chooses to ignore the fact that his well-documented success as a competitive college wrestler has far more to do with his success INSIDE the cage than anything he did as a professional wrestler. To credit one and ignore the other really shows your motivation.

That being said, his popularity and name recognition is far more tied to his pro wrestling exposure. I won't deny that, but I don't know what that has to do with the 'roots' of modern MMA.

And your example of Lesnar as a 'glaring recent example' really falls flat when you count the number of guys with pro wrestling backgrounds currently competiting in MMA today compared to those with other backgrounds. I would guess the 'pro wrestlers' are out numbered by the thousands.

So, in essence, your example doesn't even hold as much water as me saying modern MMA is "all" tied to BJJ or "all" tied to Muay Thai because there are far more current fighters with those backgrounds as oppossed to pro wrestling.

 

So forget Brock then. You can't dispute the post I made yesterday that directly links pro wrestling to Pride.

When are you going to drop "all"?

 

Your idea of 'link' based on the involvement of pro wrestlers is fine. There were many pro wrestlers involved in Pride and the Shooto Organization was founded by a pro wrestler.

But the sport we see as MMA today is rooted in many sports hence the acronym for mixed martial arts.

To be completely honest, the UFC is really the standard of MMA today and it was 100% originally a direct reproduction of vale tudo events from Brazil. The rules have been changed since those early days and the sport has been significantly influenced by many martial arts.

So in my opinion, what we see today was far more influenced by Brazilian vale tudo fighting than pro wrestling.

Nice discussion. What's next?

 

I did, thanks. It seemed like a pissing match, so rather than agree or disagree with one side or another, I decided to shed light on the origins of MMA as well as why some would find it distasteful to make an MMA-pro wrestling connection.

:Thumbs:

 

:boohoo:

 

Indeed, good talk. You are a good foil, Trplsec. If you weren't so paranoid about my motives, this would be even nicer. Forget about why I'm making the points I am and just argue my words. :bears:

 

I wasn't making a connection. The connection is as real as you or me. The facts make the connection.

 

The connection is of a "7 Degrees of Separation"-type. Your connection was a bit misleading when you worded it the way you did. Trplsec actually made a point of debating your words---particularly the one "all" which made the connection between MMA and 1980s Japanese Pro Wrestling. That, plus your connection was coupled with a backhanded remark at people who watch pro wrestling.

Vale Tudo and challenge matches between disciplines existed long before pro wrestling. The initial marketing of the UFC---the way it was sold to the public---wasn't a direct offshoot of pro wrestling. It was the direct offshoot of John Milius' decision of how to market the event, and he was a student of the Gracies and had seen some of their challenge matches. He knew a boxing ring was a bad idea because the fighters could fall out of the ring, so he came up with the idea of an Octagon-shaped cage.

Milius, who made movies such as Conan the Barbarian, was a friend of the Gracies. He was the creative director who helped market the event and attract investors. He was responsible for the way the main MMA vehicle was initially marketed---not Japanese Pro Wrestling.

UFC in its present form actually has a lot in common with boxing: walk-ins to the fighting area with music, entourages with the fighters, television exposure that markets the fighters, NSAC judges, 10-point scoring system, and a fixed number of rounds for non-title fights and title fights.

 

You're still going with "all" too, hey? Jesus, you say something around here and no matter how many times you try to clarify it's ignored. Read the thread please.

Can you take this post...

... and point out which part isn't factually acurate? Shit, even my nemesis Trplsec recognizes the connection between MMA and pro wrestling.

 

Easy, big fella. I'll be glad to answer when I have time.

 

Thank you. Just so we're clear for now... you think it's wrong to draw any connection between pro wrestling and MMA?

 

:laughing:

 

Trplsec :bears:

 

For now, I'll be fine with saying, no, I don't think it is wrong to draw any connection between the two. I do think it is wrong to make the connection to be disparaging about MMA and call it stuff like a "culture of quitting" as you've done in the past. You've had a tendency to get negative about MMA for some reason, and in that initial post you seemed to be making a negative connotation between the two---and I don't see much of a point to it frankly---particularly when you're one of the two main guys who run the forums here.

This site offers fight fans of different combat sports a place to discuss those respective sports. If a person isn't a fan of one particular sport, they should let it go rather than ragging about it because it's not really fair to the fans of that sport who post in here.

It's like someone who doesn't like the NFL, and then they go in and make negatively-tinged comments in an NFL subforum on a fairly regular basis. There's really no point. Myself, I don't watch NBA or NFL, so you'll rarely see me post in those threads other than if I saw a cool play or a particularly unusual one.:dunno:

 

Japanese MMA clearly has roots in pro wrestling, American MMA is rooted in Vale Tudo, but those connections come from the business side of things. If you want to look at its origins as a competition, it dates back to Pankration. None of that matters though. Fighting is a part of human nature, regardless of where it comes from as a sport.

 

To the part in bold I say, good for you.

As for the rest - Did I ask you for a lecture, Rydell?

 

No, you got one anyway.

 

I don't care much for lectures, Rydell.

 

I don't much care for giving them, but you kinda went out of your way for this one. If you don't consider MMA a legitimate sport, don't post in the forum and stir crap. On any other forum, anybody else would be considered trolling. You're supposed to be better than that.