Vitali vs Foreman: Who had the better technique?

In attempting to quibble over the semantics between 'skills' and 'talents', I fear you are missing the point.

Clay had exceptional speed, was entirely unorthordox, had a full range of attacking weapons, an outstanding chin, limitless reserves of heart and underrated power (possibly a result of his speed which means punches came 'blind' at unwary foes. Vitali, except perhaps the chin and heart, has none of these. Also, Ali stopped Liston, twice, who is at LEAST three levels better than anyone Vitali has ever beaten. Ali stopped Frazier, who is AT LEAST three levels better than anyone Vitali has ever beaten. Ali stopped Foreman, who is...

MTF

 

Frazier beat Ali, though, then lost a competitive decision and then they almost killed each other when Joe was thought by almost all to be 'shot'. Some lack of talent...

MTF

 

Vitali also is very unorthodox and throws many kind of shots. And furthermore, why does this matter? In my opinion it comes down to hitting and not getting hit and the both do it exceptionally well. Ali, of course, the far more proven guy - and that is why he is #1 ever, not because he appears better

 

It means do I favour him to beat any of the following:

Louis
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis

(feel free to add your own here)

I'd give him a live shot against perhaps Liston, Frazier and Tyson, but I wouldn't favour him in any of the three. IMHO he loses the rest comfortably and is stopped in a couple.

MTF

 

Two guys that rely on range & have very similar styles. One guy has 5" on the other. Ali couldn't cope with Foreman's size because Foreman could shut him down.....he looked very uncomfortable coming to terms with Alvin lewis' height......he never fought ANYBODY who uses range like Vitali does. That was a game HE invented in the heavyweight division. The only guy anywhere near Vitali's height was 210lb and fought in a crouch that effectively made him 6'2" and barely threw anything.

The fight's up in the air as far as Im concerned.

 

Precisely. And in fighting an elite level guy, his only truly testing fight, Vitali got hit LOADS. This caused him to cut gruesomely and to be stopped.

We have come full circle.

MTF ::

 

Seriously, if Vitali landed any more than half a dozen punches in that fight over fifteen rounds I'd be amazed. Ali would make him miss, and make him pay, for as long as that fight lasted. The speed differential would be HUGE.

MTF

 

Also, Vitali outlanded this guy, who in his prime, IMO, was the best heavyweight ever one on one. That's why I don't see that kind of loss as THAT big a deal.

Young Clay also got hit by likes of Henry Cooper and Doug Jones. I wouldnät pick either to win a round against Vitali

 

Lewis was in his prime? He retired two days later man...

MTF :::dunno:

 

:bears: And we haven't even touched on what happened when Vitali took on the second best opponent of his career. Well done MTF.

 

I said that in his prime he was the best heavyweight ever, not that he was at his best in that particular fight. I am not as blind as you hopehno:

 

Lets stop the fussin' and the fightin' & all just agree that Vitali is quite good at boxing and that some other boxers were really good at boxing too, eh?

 

Would you pick LL over Bowe then?

 

I would pay big money to see Double L get into the ring with a prime Bowe

 

Yes. Why?

 

He beat Ali on the grounds of at least 3 factors I have repeated posited as crucial:

1. Ali's short comeback after a 3 year stint out, taking the fight after not much re-acclimatisation. How many rounds did he have under his belt between comeback and their first fight?

2. The styles of both fighters. A point I have made repeatedly- the styles. Ali's lack of a really big "stiffener":Alabama: and Joe's swarming style.

3. Ali never having the same power as Vitali.

 

Now Ali's three years is a big deal?

What about that whole Foreman/Stewart thing?

 

Stupid, but nice try regardless.

Ali, after all, had been out for 3 years, had a few rounds I believe with Jerry Quarry {who was a helluva fighter, would have beaten both Klitschkos} and then went in deep with Frazier.

Are you seriously comparing Stewart to Frazier?

Are you seriously suggesting that 3 years to a speedster means no more than 10 years to a plodder who returned to an inferior {supposedly} division?

Come on.

 

Yes, I'm suggesting three years means no more than 10. What's the matter with you?

 

Relatively, 3 years out for Ali was as costly as 10 out for Foreman.

This is so because of {a} the level Ali returned to {b} the comparative lack of re-acclimatization he had and {c} the nature of his style which was reflex and speed oriented.

When Foreman returned to the Heavyweight division, some of the most significant fights he had were against naturally smaller men. He still lost, of course. Holyfield and Moorer had both started their careers at 175 and 190, and had won their first titles there.

Alex Stewart = Frazier. :laughing:

 

I can't tell if you're playing dumb or not. :scratcher:

 

Ali's fundamentals were terrible.

 

Depends on what you mean. Ali had plenty of solid fundamentals, such as balance, coordination, reach, using the distance and he threw plenty of good punches too, although in a bit unique manner. The only fundamentals that were terrible were the ones that were useless for his style

 

Fair enough, although a rudimentary understanding (or respect for, as may have been the case with Ali) of defense is never useless to any fighter, & may well've kept a young Ali from hitting the dirt against possibly Banks, & certainly Cooper.

 

Irish is a complex man, I fancy. :: Toos and fros with him kinda reminds me of Dylan Moran's comparison of Women & Men's arguments. His opponent like mass produced soviet tanks trundelling forwards, logically, efficiently, unidirectionally dakata, dakata, dakata. That's how I feel anyway. Irish like stealth bombers flying in from every angle and direction they whimsy, unexpectedly, devastatingly, confusingly.....but occasionally missing by 3 miles and blowing up a camel.:laugh11: Perhaps just to amuse themselves.

 

And all because I wouldn't say that Khan was a bit like Wlad......:crying::crying:

 

Yet he won an Olympic gold medal and multiple HWY world titles.

 

Both chinny, vulnerable. But improved by a terrific trainer. Both rely exclusively on fighting at range and controlling distance. Both with limited punch variety. Both with great jabs.

Seriously, i'd love to know in what way Khan isn't like Wlad. (you're right that Wlad is much more composed, economical, intelligent etc, which is why I find him decent to watch and Khan fucking unbearable....but OTOH, Khan has more speed)

 

Would you train your fighter to mimic Ali's grip on fundamentals?

Have you ever seen a trainer in a gym do so?

 

If I had a fighter who had a once in a generation talent i wouldn't want to hamper his style completely by having him fight in such a way that diminished his abilities.

In other words i wouldn't try to get Ali to fight like JM Marquez even thought he may do things more "technically correct".