Vitali vs Foreman: Who had the better technique?

Sure...all fine & dandy, that, but it doesn't equate to Ali's fundamentals being good.

 

Ali pulled back from hooks with his hands down. After 3 years out, the slight decline in his ability to pull this trick off, coupled with Fraziers left hook, created a lot of problems for the guy. Klitschko also pulls back from the hook with his hand down. The thing is that he relies on height. And time doesn't shrink a man quite like it slows him.

 

I never said they were. I'm saying it didn't matter. In fact proper fundamentals would have hindered him more than helped. (for the most part of course)

It reminds of this show i was watching about F1 and Michael Schumacher. (I don't follow racing at all in any form, just follow my point here)

They had racing experts not only watching runs but computers hooked up to the cars recording all sorts of stats to analyze afterward. They showed how one guy attacked a corner. The techs analyzing the data stated it couldn't have been done better. It was like a computer was operating the car. The revs, steering, timing etc were just what you'd want. The line graph they showed was a perfect arc.

They did the same test with Schumacher. His data looked like like a terrible liar with a heart condition hooked to a polygraph machine.

However his time was just that fraction of a second better because he had a way of doing things that were not conventional but turned out to be more effective. (ie faster)

Can you or would you try train somebody to drive like that? No.

However i don't think anybody was going to tell him "yeah that was faster, but we want you to do it more technically correct according to this text book".

 

My only point was that Ali's fundamentals weren't great. We appear to agree on that.

 

Well if you're going to be that way then i don't agree. ::

 

::

 

So were Michael Johnson's (the Multi-gold medal winning world record holding 200/400m US sprinter)! It doesn't matter if you have natural physical gifts to compensate.

 

I agree. All I was saying was Ali's fundamentals were quite poor, & no one should read anything beyond that. I could not agree more that Ali more than compensated --- just saying I disagreed with the original contention (I can't even recall off-hand who said it now :: ) that Ali had great fundamentals. He really didn't.

 

And once Ali had suffered a slight physical decline it hurt him more than it did Foreman. Slow fighters don't feel the damage caused by a decline in speed, because they never became dependent upon it.

Ali always had some very very bad habits, but he got away with them thanks to his speed and his agility.

3 years away from the game dimmed his reflexes. The relative quality of the opposition he faced from 1971 onwards, his bad habits and his lack of a big punch are part of the reason why he is in the state he is now.

 

Some of his fundamentals were poor. He had very bad habits- dropping his hands, pulling back from shots, not bringing the right back after throwing it. I would also posit that the impression Ali had bad fundamentals is exaggerated a little bit by how he was received by a public who had never seen a heavyweight like him.

 

I wouldn't disagree, actually --- just to say that those rudiments he did neglect were done so in a very, very obvious manner, & contrary to popular opinion, it would have served him better to have them in-place, irrespective of his physical talents (which were obviously quite unique).

 

I disagree. It must be accepted that there is no one correct boxing style, what works is good

 

In a heartbeat. Not only that, but Bowe obviously thought Lewis would mangle him (again) which explains why he threw his belt in a bin to get himself out of that fight.

MTF

 

Puuuuullllleeeezz.

You mean he thought he might get caught with a good 2 punch combo that pushed him back to the ropes a bit? I'm sure memories of that merciless beating had him waking up in cold sweats for years.

 

Lewis would have mullered Bowe

 

In 1993? Competitive fight.

 

No

 

Nah...

Changing Ali's innovative style to a more conventional one would have confused the fighter and rendered him no good....just as what would have happened to Michael Johnson if someone tried to give him more kneelift and run less upright.

 

The result of the amateur fight was effectively 19-19. Bowe showed as much to suggest he would beat Lewis in the first with the dominance of his jab and his infighting as Lewis did in the 2nd when he got through with some hard ones. The bottom line is Lewis struggled with anyone who had a really good jab - IMO Bowe's jab at his peak was the best of the decade, including Lewis'. Bowe could take a shot, had far better punch variety on the inside where much of the fight would take place and could match Lewis for size and strength. I'd pick Lewis, but it's clearly a competitive match, and one we should have seen (leaving who in Bowe's team was behind the duck job & why aside).

 

We can't prove this...I know...but I'm telling you the Bowe COULD NOT have taken Lennox Lewis' shots in the Early 90s. I was sure at the time and still am that Bowe would have crumbled before Lewis. Bowe had never been HIT by a big puncher until he faced Golota...and believe it or not....I had picked Golota to win both fights with Bowe.

 

Lewis would have put "Chicken Bowe" on ice, and fat daddy and his manager both knew that, and that is why Bowe never fought Lennox.

Those were Lewis' words, btw, not mine.

Karl

 

I choose the option 'not'

 

word.

 

:: that's ok.

I obviously can't prove it.

 

I'd say there is too little evidence to reach to that conclusion. Vitali only had one fight against a great opponent, and it's true he lost, but he never had another opportunity to prove himself. It's not like he ducked anybody. In fact he was hell-bent to have a rematch against Lewis, who actually agreed on that right after their fight. Half a year later Lewis changed his mind, probably he wasn't so confident in his victory after giving it a few thoughts.

There are plenty of great fighters who lost their first big fight against an elite opponent, but later they were able to redeem themselves. Vitali never had that opportunity in this abysmal heavyweight division, where the few decent fighters are scared shitless of him (or cannot fight him for other reason).

I do agree Vitali never proved he would be a great fighter, because he never had a chance after the Lewis fight, but it also have never been proven he would be totally hapless against a quality opponent. At least he dominated his inferior foes, unlike some past greats (Holmes).

 

I admit to being in the minority here, but I like Bowe's chances against Lewis...even the Lewis of his pomp. Lewis' inability to cope with a jabber would've been the difference, for mine.

Whoever you pick, there is certainly no stock to be placed in that absurd stoppage from the Olympics. It was awful.

 

Oh, like Golota?

 

They didn't exchange any jabs that I recall.

 

The man threw his belt in a BIN to get out of his mandatory fight against Lewis. Called a press conference and deposited his belt in a giant trash can FFS.

Not even Mayweather has since stooped to such levels.

MTF

 

I have never doubted Vitali's heart- I have little doubt that had further opportunities presented themselves, he would have stepped up to take a shot at them. Equally, I have already said that Vitali deserves credit for the rudamentary way he deals with weak challengers.

Like I said, Vitali is clearly a very good fighter. I just don't think he is a great one.

MTF