Is Cain Velasquez as GOOD as he Looked OR, is Brock Lesnar as BAD as he Looked???...

A few posters on this board, including myself, called it. Brock is a bitch. Sure, he's big, athletic, and scary, but anytime someone hits him he'll fold. His skills may get better with time, but he'll never train away his dislike for being hit. I knew the uppercut that Carwin hit him with wasn't as hard Brock made it look, and last night proved it.

 

Think Dana is crying right now? :Wah:

 

disagREED...

The PANIC that Comes from Being Hit Can B TRAINED OUT of a Fighter...It just Takes TIME...Lesnar Needs to ABSORB Himself in Boxing, Thai Boxing, Muay Thai, etc....Go to VARIOUS Gyms, Get his Ass Kicked for a Few Months & he'll Come Out a BETTER Fighter for It...

The Thing is, Lesnar's Chin ISN'T Bad...It's NOT as if the Lights Go Out when he Gets Hit...This ISN'T Bob Sapp or Marcus the Darkness we're Talking about...Lesnar's Issue is PANIC/INSECURITY...As he Becomes More FAMILIAR w/Striking, he'll Get Better @ It...

It's Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Toooooooooo EARLY to Completely Write Brock Lesnar Off, N REED's Opinion....

REED:mj:

 

True, but at 33 I think learning to be a proficient striker may take too long. Also, I still think that Brock is just too big/bulky/awkward to ever be any good standing up.

 

So who else do you think can beat Brock?

 

Anyone with decent stand up who can avoid his takedowns.

 

agREED...

@ 33, It's Tooooooooooooo LATE in the Game for Brock to Ever B GOOD @ Striking...REED is Merely Talking about Lesnar Getting ACCLIMATED to Being Hit...Once he's Gotten his Ass Kicked for Awhile in Some Gyms, Brock's HEAD MOVEMENT will Improve, he'll Learn to Actually BLOCK Some Shots (Considering the Size of his Hands & Arms, those Can B VALUABLE Defensive Weapons)& he'll Pick Up 1 or 2 Reliable Punches of his Own...

Yes, it's Toooooo Late for Lesnar to EVER have GOOD Standup, but it's NOT tooooo Late for him to Get Used to Being Hit, which will Lessen these Deer-in-the-Headlights PANIC Attacks he's Had, N Back to Back Fights...

Dudes Chin is Obviously STOUT...Carwin & Cain BOTH Tee'd Off on his Ass, yet Lesnar was NEVER Close to Losing Conciousness...He's just Gotta Get More COMFORTABLE w/Being Hit...Even @ 33, that's Still a TANGIBLE Goal...



REED:hammert:

 

That makes sense

 

Regardless of whether this is true or not, he's 33. It's not as if he's only a little scared to get hit, the kind of aversion he has to being hit will take longer to train out of him than he has time for. His size will win him fights, not his toughness or really even his skills.

It's not a good idea to bring up Bob Sapp. I agree lesnar's chin is good, but if that didn't look like a Bob sapp fight I don't know what does. A huge guy going after a smaller fighter, unloading on him like he's having a seizure and trying to smother him. Little guy gains his composure, and starts firing back, and then the big guy folds like a cheap suit.

I'm not saying Lesnar is as bad as Sapp, but there are some very obvious parallels in the way they approach fighting.

 

It's More FAIR to Guage Lesnar In Terms of FIGHTING EXPERIENCE, as Opposed to Harping on his Age, Don't U Think???...Yes, he's 33, but How Old is he in FIGHTING YEARS???...

Lesnar PRIDES Himself on Having a PRIVATE, EXCLUSIVE Training Camp...People COME TO HIM to Teach him Things...@ Least as it Pertains to Striking & Becoming ACCUSTOMED to Getting Hit, that Aspect of Lesnar's Training Needs to CHANGE...He Needs to TRAVEL to Various Gyms, Sparring w/Guys he CAN'T Handpick, Getting All Kinds of Different Looks & Getting USED to Being Hit...

U CAN'T Train a Chin, so Lesnar's Already WON Half of the Battle...His Issue is More PSYCHOLOGICAL than Anything Else...Lesnar Can AFFORD to Spend a Couple Weeks @ a Time in Cali, N.Y., Philly & Other Boxing Hotbeds to Get Some Sparring...He Can Do Likewise to Get Some Rounds of Thai Boxing, Muay Thai (etc.,) Sparring in as Well...

If Lesnar's Willing to Get OUTSIDE of his Comfort Zone, this is DOable...

Lesnar is MUCH More Dedicated to his Craft than Sapp was...



REED:hammert:

 

Time will tell, but I think he's a front runner and doesn't have the heart for fighting. People will point to the carwin fight, but curling into the fetal position and having your opponent gas out is NOT heart.

 

U're GENERALIZING Lesnar, in REED's Opinion...

1st of All, from the MOMENT He Stepped Into the UFC, he's Fought GOOD Competiton...NEVER Did Dana White CARRY, BABY or MILK Brock Lesnar w/the Cheick Kongo's of the World...In 7 MMA Bouts, Lesnar has Fought 7 LEGIT Guys (or 6 Actually:scared2:)...

So HOW Can U Call him a 'Front Runner'???...If he was a Front Runner, he'd have NEVER Stepped Back in the Cage w/Mir...He May have FOLDED After a Competitive 1st Round vs. Couture & he CERTAINLY Would've FOLDED Against Carwin...Speaking of which, Lesnar was MOMENTARILY in the Fetal Position During that Fight...He was Also KICKING Carwin Off of him & BLOCKING Quite a Few Punches...

To Say that Lesnar was Curled Up in the Fetal Position UNTIL Carwin Got Tired, is an EXAGGERATION...

Most Guys, that R NEW to Being Punched in the Face, React SIMILARLY to How Lesnar Reacts to it...It's a Matter of LITERALLY Having that Anxiety BEATEN OUT of him...

Like U Said, "Time will Tell" if Lesnar is Willing to Do it...

REED:dancingBaby:

 

REED, so now the definition of a good chin is being unconscious or not? Lesnar does not take punches well, apparently. That's called having a bad chin.

 

A Guy that Can WITHSTAND Multiple Shots w/Out Appearing DRUNKEN, HAZY or GLASSY EYED has a Better Chin than a Guy whose Lights FLICKER OUT After 1 or 2 Well Placed Shots...

Shane Carwin Hit Gabriel Gonzaga & Frank Mir w/FEWER Shots than he Hit Brock Lesnar w/....Gonzaga & Mir were EACH Rendered UNfuckingCONSCIOUS in the Process...Lesnar MAINTAINED Conciousness All the While (Enduring MORE Punishment, No Less) Because he has a BETTER CHIN than Gonzage or Mir...

Lesnar Doesn't REACT To Punches Well...He TAKES them just Fine...After Lesnar Got Hit by Carwin & Cain, His CONFIDENCE Went to Shit, but Lesnar Still had his WITS About Him...Marcus "the Darkness" Jones (from TUF) has a BAD Chin...Brock Lesnar DOESN'T...



REED:hammert:

 

Personally, I thought the fight could have gone a whole lot different if Lesnar had some faith in his striking. He tagged Cain with some good shots and he was not throwing the same half assed punches he was against Carwin. He had a horrible game plan, it's like he thought he was going to just blow Cain out. He used way too much energy with all the bullshit flying knees and constantly trying to get Cain down. I really think he should have been more patient and actually boxed with Cain, I don't care what anyone says, Cain's striking isn't that much better and Lesnar has a longer reach and way more power. He basically gassed himself out like a dumbass. After he couldn't hold Cain down the first time, why would he keep trying to get him down?

It's hard to say Lesnar sucks, you don't beat Mir, Carwin, Couture and Herring like he did if you suck so I'm not going to say that. He's still a dangerous fighter. Whoever said "anyone with good striking and takedown defense" can beat Lesnar, please tell me who that is. Cain and Lesnar are the two best wrestlers in the HW division. Just because Lesnar couldn't keep Cain down doesn't mean shit for anyone else. Had it been JDS would he have got back up? Doubtful. There just isn't that many guys with the wrestling to do what Cain did.

With that said, Cain is the man. That's a great win for him and he will be hard to beat.

 

One thing I really like about MMA is that losing doesnt mean career over.

It's one of the things I like to see back in boxing.

 

I think Lesnar has a decent chin in the way he can take some good punches with out being knocked out. The thing is, it looks like he is crazy scared of actually getting hit, scared of the actual pain of being hit in the face.

 

That is exactly how guys look that have never sparred before. He reacts as poorly to getting hit as anyone I've ever seen in MMA or boxing. He retreats, almost gets into a standing fetal position and even turns his back.

Lesnar needs to do nothing but boxing training for his entire next camp.

 

JDS KO1 LESNAR ANY DAY OF THE WEEK AND TWICE ON SUNDAY

 

IMO - Cain is as good as he looks. He's clearly got ELITE MMA wrestling skills; creme de la creme; and his ability to put accurate, damaging combos together is also first rate by MMA standards. That alone make will make him difficult to beat.

Man, if only a Cain/Werdun/Fedor/Lesnar tournament could be organized. That would rawk.

 

'Word'

 

Large font doens't make it true.

 

I am pretty surprised at so many of the people writing Lesnar off just like that. I knew lots of people hated him but he proved to be a legitimate heavyweight champion with wins over very legitimate opposition.

I think Cain is that good, and I think where I and Lesnar both underestimated him was his strength and ability to fend off Lesnar's takedowns. I think that Lesnar expected to be able to overpower Cain with relative ease and it was actually nothing like that.

Lesnar has flaws, but Cain is that good.

 

Agree. And I keep trying to remind people that Lesnar, despite the Championship, is still an MMA puppy. The dude has faced a high level of competition in less than 3 years in the UFC.

I can think of no one that was feed to the wolves as quickly and oftern as Lesnar. It is obviously partially his fault for wanting big fights immediately.

That being said, a guy that can kick off his UFC Career with wins over Herring, Couture, Mir and Carwin is far from a joke. He can beat the majority of the guys out there. Hell, if JDS shocks me and beats Cain, I would probably make Lesnar a favorite against JDS.

Don't write him off. He has serious flaws, but he has time to improve.

 

I agree to a point with your statement, but your Bob Sapp example is very bad imo. Sapp is exactly like Lesnar, a big guy who has a decent chin but reacts very poorly to being hit repeatedly. I don't see how you can say Sapp chin is bad yet claim Lesnar's isn't.

 

I told you guys Lesnar is a scrub.

Honestly though, Cain is legit. Didn't just beat Lesnar, fucking demolished him.

Lesnar isn't a scrub obviously, but many of you are crazy to overrate him so much. He certainly has impressive attributes, insane wrestling and athleticism for a man of his size, surprising speed in addition to strength.

But he is not a great fighter by any means. The first prime elite heavyweight he fights just destroys him.

He lacks composure and ring smarts, reacts really badly to getting hit (even taking his inexperience into account, he should have got hit enough in sparring to handle it better), and really has no plan B when he can't out wrestle a guy, he looks clueless.

He did show impressive heart against Carwin actually, just managed to sort of outlast Carwin, but they both looked crap in that fight.

Which fighters do you think have the best chance of beating Cain?

 

JDS will KO Cain

 

I think the title will be passed around like a joint.

 

Genius - I agree about the loss statement you made. But I do think as far as that goes it is getting better in Boxing. Pac has losses and most have him #1 or #2 boxer in the world.

Trplsec, your analogy of Brock looking like a guy who has never sparred is so spot on. He needs it baaad. He needs to get with a real nasty camp. A gym that spars with MMA gloves and go balls out. Take a few months before training for a fight. I know there are a few of you saying that is crazy, but we do it at our gym all the time. Especially with new fighters. You have to understand what it feels like to get hit and how to react. You will never do that with head gear and a controlled setting.