Where does Pacman rank alltime?

Let's have this topic one more time. Did Pacman climb up the ladder once again?

 

It's forever the toughest question in Boxing --- all-time ratings are easy to steer clear of, because they are just so damn brutally difficult. I try to keep these all about achievements & put hypothetical head-to-heads on the back-burner here. For instance, my money would be on Pernell Whitaker against Manny Pacquiao if they met at, say, 135lbs & perhaps 147, too...but on accolades, Pacquiao is getting the all-time nod. No question, & I am among Whitaker's biggest fans.

I cannot see the argument, personally, that Pacquiao is number-one or number-two all-time. I do, however, rank him above both Muhammad Ali & Joe Louis at this point --- neither of whom have ever been in my top-10, as they are for most people. What Pacquiao has done is truly gargantuan --- truly. Absolutely nobody does these things, & I'm not one for retrospective downgrading of the victories (read: decimations) over De La Hoya, Hatton & Cotto. No, those were immense successes very few men in history could duplicate starting their careers where Pacquiao did, under any circumstances.

Then, though, you think of someone like Sam Langford. Harry Greb. Henry Armstrong, or Willie Pep. Being honest, I would probably place all four above Pacquiao (especially the essentially-incomparable Langford) for all-time status, & that's just off the top of my head.

There are just so many spectacular names, but for raw in-ring accomplishment --- & even this will stir debate --- I do not see Pacquiao any lower than top-15, all-time.

 

TOP 15

 

Considering his overall ability, insane accomplishments especially considering he started his career at flyweight, I think he's the best fighter ever.

Some fighters have insane talent, but not great accomplishments (I guess Tyson would be one of those) and some have accomplishments that outweigh their talent.

Pacquiao has at least as much of both as anyone in the history of the sport, that's why I consider him the best fighter ever.

Plus being 5'5 and starting at flyweight, then slapping welterweights around the ring like they are heavy bags is unheard of, and extraordinary.

 

I would say his abilities could never match his achievements at this point --- the in-ring accolades are just that damn good.

Tyson is as perfect an example to name as a fighter whose abilities heavily out-strip his accomplishments, BTW.

 

They are Ramonza, but like I said in another thread just now, I don't think this version of Pacquiao should be considered an underdog against ANY fighter in history, in a P4P sense.

So in terms of ability too, I think he's basically as good as it gets. At worst I'd put him at even money with some fighters.

 

See, I would not quite go that far. I could see some fighters who would be definite starting favourites against Pacquiao (pound-for-pound) in my eyes. He certainly does possess a quite rare blend of talents, though --- you would expect nothing less from someone with an even rarer list of achievements.

 

I'd still favor Floyd to beat him now, albeit marginally...and thats now, forget about ever...that doesnt diminish his weight-transcending achievements althoguh there are fighters I would pick at the various weigths he has inhabited that would beat him IMO...the unusual thing about Pac is that when we think of him p4p its hard not to take into account that we've already seen him figth at most of those weight limits with differing strengths at each

 

For me he is the best ever. The guy is so unique, even his style, it's animal like. Almost like a mongoose picking a cobra apart, a joy to watch

 

I rate Leonard as the best. I think a decent argument can be made that Pacquiao is better.

However, any historical P4P ranking will look like this:

#(1 through 10) Manny Pacquiao*


*turned down $40 million to avoid getting tested for PEDs against Floyd Mayweather within the window that testing actually matters. Put into perspective, Pacquiao had not made $40 million in fight purses in his entire career to that point.

 

Top 10 lock.

 

Is that Benny, or Ray?

 

Interesting way of putting it. I agree, actually.

 

If Pacman is top 20 all time with defeats to guys whose names people can't recall, where does that leave guys like:

1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Wladmir Klitschko
3. Roy Jones

 

If Pac fights and beats Floyd he's #1 no question.

Until then...he's in the top 5..NO QUESTION.

 

For his era (you don't tend to have 100+ fights anymore) Pacquiao has accomplished AS MUCH as any fighter in history if not more...when you consider the combination of linear titles and ABC belts.

The only thing he hasn't yet achieved is beating the only other man that has claim to being teh best fighter of his era and that is teh unbeaten Floyd Mayweather.

But this isn't about Mayweather...it's about Pac and as such we have to rate pac up there with Robinson, Armstrong, Duran or whoever.

If Pac fought in any era pre-80s this wouldn't even be a debate.

Put it this way..how many former flyweights in history would people realistically consider beating a fighter as huge as Kelly Pavlik? None!

 

Mayweather better not be one of the other four...:nono:

 

This isn't about Mayweather...

 

Simply not in line with reality. Not even close.

It's not even known if he could really beat a guy like Roberto Duran.

 

Sly who's in your top 5?

 

Roy's legacy is secured in the top 20.

 

Start a new thread on that topic and we'll discuss.

 

Even though Roy is currently losing to guys like Danny Green?

For me, if Pac is in the top 20, Jones is in the top 15. And I don't really think Jones is any higher than top 15. Jones achievements at 175 are average at best. What makes him top 15 is the leap from 154 to 200, even to beat a guy like Ruiz. In othewords, what makes it for Jones is pretty much the same thing that is making it for Pac- its the leaps in weight to fight damaged big-name fighters or ordinary fighters, who are disposed of in some style.


Pac is top 20, but only just.

Oscar, Hatton, Margarito, Cotto, were all to some greater or lesser extent damaged goods by the time they fought Pacman......could Pac have beaten prime Duran at 135? Prime Robinson, prime Ray Leonard, even a prime Basilio at 147? Could he have beaten Pep and Saddler at 126? These are the tests for top 5.

I think Pac is top 20- JUST.

 

What 19 guys do you have ahead of him?

 

Ali
Ray Leonard
Ray Robinson
Pep
Basilio
Duran
Fitzsimmons
Roy Jones Jr
Jack Johnson
Joe Louis
JC Chavez
Pernell Whittaker
Henry Armstrong
Aaron Pryor
Alexis Arguello

Want me to keep going? Those names alone pushing into the top 20 and out of the top 15.

Those in bold and red, in their primes, may well have beaten him quite handily.

By way of comparison, you need only compare ODLH, Hatton, Cotto and Barrera to the names on that list and ask where the drained, injured, washed-up versions of those fighters stacked up against the prime version of the names on that list, especially those in highlights.

Pac may well have been utterly embarassed by Pep at 126. Pryor may well have kicked fuck out of him.

 

Just by way of being more emphatic about it:

Consider that Floyd Mayweather, a man whom he seems unlikely to fight, a major knock against any GOAT/Top 5 claims, already beat far better versions of ODLH and Hatton.

Whilst the KO of Hatton may have taken longer, it was no less emphatic, and arrived a full 18 months before Pac's stoppage of Hatton {December 2007 vs May 2009}.

I cannot make a case for Pac being GOAT, or Top 5 OAT. Much of his claim to fame is based on his impressive battering of wasted or damaged goods fighters many miles removed from his starting point. Oscar started at 135. Cotto at 140. JMM, who arguably beat him, and who did draw with him, lost title fights at 126 to Freddy Norwood and Chris John. He is undoubtedly the most accomplished fighter of his generation but he is not top 5 OAT

 

Basilio....beat Pacquiao...:notallthere::Hanzkiller:

I'm not saying Pac is unbeatable...or picking him to beat the Fab 4 like some did last night...IMO he gets beat up by Duran, Leonard, Hearns and Hagler...with no problem...

and the guys you have in RED i have no problem...i think Pac could lose to them on any given night..except for Basillo...

 

I said top 15...fuck that TOP 10 all time...if he beats Mayweather in the next 18 months...TOP 5-6 w/ no fucking problem...

 

Basilio would have to be ranked better than Margarito. It isn't size that bothers Pac, it's people who can keep throwing and have insane fitness levels and can keep working, keep throwing, keep hustling, non-stop. Basilio is better at that windmill shit than Margarito ever was. Check him out in the 11th vs Robinson in their first fight.

Hearns would blast him out. Hagler would actually have more trouble than Duran, who is simply the ideal foil for Pac. But I regard Hearns and Hagler as belonging to a different strata in terms of weight and size....guys like Pryor and Duran are far more likely to cross Pac's path, if you see my point.

 

of course Basilio is better than Margarito....but Pacquiao will still bust him up...

Hearns and Hagler would KO him....so will Duran and Leonard...Duran will be a nightmare for Pacquiao, don't care what anybody says Duran will be on him like white on rice...for 12 rounds bullying him.

Pryor vs. Pacquiao is all time dream match...this is one fighter Pacquiao won't be able to keep in the middle of the ring...and who will walk through Pac best punches, etc..etc..similar to Duran..