So I have some buddies who are somewhat casual MMA fans. We were drinking a few tonight and watching Spike(some compilation of replays) somehow we started talking about the Shamrocks. Both of them think Frank was the better fighter. I completely disagree. At both of their primes I definitely think Ken was better. The bad thing is Ken's prime was so long ago and most today never saw it. I know it obviously has no significance today, but who do you guys rate as the better Shamrock?:scratcher:
frank was naturally smaller, but beat better opposition and was more dynamic. was pancrase really real? i heard a lot of those matches were worked.
Ken was great back in the day and think he deserves some credit for putting the mix in mixed martial arts...but with that being said I think Frank was the better all around fighter.
Jarhead, it could be because I literally forget what a prime Ken Shamrock was like, but from what I remember all those years ago, and from their records etc, I think Frank is clearly better.
It's funny, but if Frank would have stayed retired after dog whipping Tito Ortiz, he would probably be regarded as one of the greatest Champions in UFC history. For my money, Frank had the better career and was the better fighter. That being said if they met at their prime and at their prime weights, I think Ken's superior strength and power win it. People tend to forget, due to his recent history, but Ken was an absolute bad man in MMA's early days. I always take the Pancrase fights with a grain of salt. There were so many rumors of rigged outcomes and bouts without judges or decisions.
This is pretty much what I was telling my friends. Granted both of them had no idea Frank had even beat Tito, or the brutal one round ko slam of Igor(hell they didn't know who Igor was) so as I am telling this I am kind of making their arguement for them.:doh: But my point was Ken was a straight up beast back in the day. I know he got paid, but he also wasted alot of time in the WWF. By the way. I was looking at Sherdog, comparing Frank's and Ken's records. They don't have any record of Ken fighting in Elite XC. Didn't he fight Thompson there? I swear he fought a couple times for them. Can anyone correct me?
Frank was a stud, and beats Ken in their primes. I don't weigh the strength advantage that heavily. Ken wasn't a big HW and Frank was a good sized 205. Not to mention little Royce beat Ken in his prime.
No, actually he was supposed to fight Kimbo on an Elite XC card but got the cut and Seth stepped in and kicked Kimbo's ass. Ken never fought for EliteXC.
Can someone please explain the Shamrock connection between these two ? Didn't Ken like adopt Frank or something then shit got all weird and now they hate each other ?
I am pretty sure both bounced around in foster homes as kids and were both adopted by the same family, who had adopted a bunch of other troubled kids. They are not really related at all, and I don't think they were ever the closest of friends, it's just gotten worse over the years.
Ken was a remorseless terror back in the old Pancrase days, ruining Bas Rutten's knee. His standup wasn't great, but Frank's only got great near the end. Before that, Frank had adequate standup at best. Ken was a decent wrestler as well and the naturally bigger fighter. It's like comparing a middleweight and a small heavyweight. Frank wound up becoming great and he eventually had the more distinguished career in my opinion. Ken, in his heyday, was very very good, but the pro wrestling kind of detracts from his record and he wound up hanging on too long, getting his ass kicked a number of times and tarnishing his image. Ken, in his prime, was not someone to fuck with because he had no problems with completely ruining your leg. Frank messed guys up as well, but Ken just had a really evil look to him.
Tell that to Leon Dijk and Bas Rutten's knees. Hell, tell it to Ken: Minoru Suzuki made HIM scream. Bas fucked one guy up so badly, the guy spent almost a year in the hospital and they almost had to amputate the guy's leg.
I have talked with Matt Hume about those Pancrase fights. He compared it seriously to Vale Tudo. He told me that guys would leave on stretchers and shit. Brutal stuff.
not to discredit pancrase, but it was a wide assumption that there were at least a few fights where they were 'works'. for instance, shamrock's final about before he left the org for ufc was allegedly a 'work'. that and the fact that in the beginning, there were a plenty of new japan/all-japan type prowrestlers and most of these guys were friends w/ each other.
First off, "little Royce" won 3 of the first 4 UFCs when almost nobody knew what BJJ or Gracie Jiu Jitsu were. Shamrock wasn't used to fighting a guy wearing a gi and lost because of a choke Royce applied while using his gi. The first few UFCs were developed by the Gracies to showcase Royce and Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Talk about stacking the deck. If you want to factor in Royce, then factor in Bas Rutten. Rutten beat Frank twice and lost to Ken twice. Frank was not a good-sized lightheavyweight. If that were the case, he wouldn't have been fighting at 179 against Nick Diaz near the end of his career. He was a small lightheavyweight who had no problems making middleweight (185). Ken was the first UFC heavyweight champion and the first King of Pancrase. He was a smallish heavyweight who could make lightheavyweight without much problem (205). He was a pioneer who paved the way for Frank. Ken founded the Lion's Den and beat guys like Maurice Smith, who Frank later created his own team with, The Alliance. The strength advantage would definitely be in Ken's favour, but the speed would be in Frank's. Standup would also be Frank's, but the grappling belonged to Ken in my opinion. One x-factor that I've yet to see broached: Frank's knees are and have been shot for a long time...even in his prime. Ken was murder on people's knees, and Ken was the bigger, heavier, stronger grappler. If Ken got it to the ground, Frank might need knee replacement surgery. Now think about how many MMA fights go to the ground.
Bas' first Pancrase opponent was in the hospital for 2 days. Ken regularly fucked guys up and left them with knee or ankle problems. Ken was an animal. People look at the fights with Tito and think Ken wasn't all that. Big mistake. Those fights were at the end of his career.
yea, i dont really count the post-wwe days of ken. although, his fight vs. don frye was a classic. i heard frye's ankle was all fucked after that.
I read somewhere, or maybe even saw an interview with Frye where he talked about both of his ankles being fucked up. He supposedly took heavy doses of painkillers before the fight because he knew that the leg locks were a possibility, and didn't want to tap. He became addicted to them after the fight too.
Agree 100% Buddy. That's exactly what I said in my first post. People always snicker about Ken Shamrock now because of the joke he has become. But back in the day, this dude was an absolute killer. Prime versus Prime, at their best weights, Ken manhandles Frank. There really is no guess work about it. Ken was just a beast. Hell, I'll go one further. Back then Ken would have had that whole 'big brother' intimidation thing working as well. Keep in mind, Ken was the teacher. In Ken's prime, I doubt Frank would have wanted any part of him. And screw that whole "little" Royce nonsense. Take a look at their second fight when Ken wasn't shocked by the Gi and JJ. He beat Royce up. I know it was deemed a draw, but anyone who saw the fight will tell you that Royce got his ass kicked.
good post. i also thought ken beat royce in the rematch. royce inflicted zero damage and his face was a mess afterwards.
Even by that point, Ken was rather ringworn. It was 2002, 7 years after he had the rematch with Gracie. Don't get me wrong - Ken still trained hard but all fighters begin to decline eventually. If Don Frye hadn't been drugged out of his mind, he probably would have tapped. In fact, Frye has said that he wished he didn't trashtalk so much before the fight. He wound up hooked on painpills because Shamrock really did a number on his ankles and knees.
Not even close. How are you going to compare a sport with NO rules, to a sport with so many it can BARELY be considered MMA with it's pro wrestling style rope breaks and no punches to the head among various others. It also had a 10 count for God's sake. The only reason people got messed up so bad was... 1: Poor refereeing 2: Speculative, but retards trying to rope escape in a heel hook instead of tapping because everyone knows heel hooks cause breaks quickly.
No guesswork about it...how retarded. Both share common opponents with varying results, there is no evidence of Ken being better than Frank in any way. And Frank not being a legit LHW is the most retarded shit Ive ever seen. Just because soft ass Frank that was 5 years removed from his physical prime, not doing shit but doing movies lost weight and fought at 180 doesn't mean he isn't the same guy that made Ken's father and the original Thiago Alves in Tito, quit. Also, Ken was pretty much lucky his whole career was spent roided up and in that joke of a promotion Pancrase. Open hand palm strkes. GTFO with that shit. Frank was a powerful striker, so it'd only be reasonable for him to be much better after he left Pancrase and its retarded rules. Also :: manhandled. Frank fought most people that Ken fought, and fought tanks in Tito and Henderson(in grappling) and beat them in dominating fashion. Ken's going to need a bit more than steroids to manhandle Frank.
