Pac has always been known for his speed and power. He has become a better fighter but still largely relies on his speed and power.
I agree. Pacquiao's speed advantage is really in full force at welterweight, and his style has changed. Since the Oscar fight, the only fight where Pacquiao really sat down on his punches is the Hatton fight. Apart from that fight he's just been zipping around the ring blasting them with quick combos from all angles. Obviously hurtful punches, he has natural explosive power, but he hasn't really been sitting in his punches trying to get KO's. He's basically been outboxing guys in highly offensive fashion. Where I disagree though is that any of those welterweights has comparable speed. Judah still has faster hands than any of them, but not as fast as Pacquiao's, and Judah's footspeed and reaction speed is significantly slower than Manny's. And let's be honest, Judah would have less chance of beating Manny than Marquez would now. The only person at 147 realistically capable of beating him is Floyd IMO. And that has nothing to do with speed, because again, Manny is faster. Just pure skill/defense.
It isn't an all or nothing equation. If the speed distance can just be closed up significantly it might have a big effect on how Pac's style works against bigger men.
Pac was essentially a slugger at featherweight. Constantly looking to sit down on hard shots & hurt guys. Now he's a volume puncher who uses range very defensively. Flurry, score and move. It's reliant on having a huge advantage in foot speed & setting speed because he knows he an't stay inside the pocket and trade over the long term like a conventional volume puncher like say Margarito. That style wouldn't have worked as well at featherweight. And his featherweight style wouldn't work as well against most welterweights, although he has had to revert to it against Hatton and in periods of the Margarito fight out of necessity.
So far here are the attributes of the "Black American" style. Speed. let's keep this list going. Or better yet, drop the whole "Black American" thing and just say you want Pac to face a fast fighter.
Cool. I've never regarded it as a criticism of Pac that he hasn't fought a Black American fighter, since apart from Floyd there haven't been many decent ones around for him. It's just an interesting piece of trivia that he hasn't, considering he'll probably go down as the first great fighter between 135-147 not to have since the 20s or some shiz.
Actually, the "Beef" w/Pacquiao has Stemmed from him Not Facing the Traditional "Black American STYLE", as Opposed to Any Particular Black Fighter...Think Muhammad Ali, Pernell Whittaker, Roy Jones or Floyd Mayweather...These 4 would B the FACE, the MOUNT RUSHMORE of the "Black American Style"... If Boxing Fans R HONEST w/Themselves, they ALREADY Associate Styles & Tendencies to Particular Races...It's an INEVITABILITY, Actually...In Most Cases an "Action" Fighter is Gonna B WHITE or MEXICAN...If a Guy is Known as a "Bleeder", he's Typically WHITE...The "Boring", "Safety First" Guys R Typically BLACK... Again, Be HONEST w/Yourself...If U ARE, then U've NOTICED these Stereotypes & Recognize there's a DEGREE of Truth to ALL of them...That DOESN'T Make U Racist Either; It Makes U a Racial REALIST... Bringing it Back to Manny Pac, the CLOSEST Facsimile to a "Black American Style" that he's Seen is JM Marquez...w/Out Question, JM Marquez DOES NOT Fight in the Traditional "Mexican Style" (& Please SPARE REED the 1 or 2 Exceptions to this Rule, Because that DOESN'T Alter the NORM)...As he's Gotten OLDER, Marquez's Skill, Talent & Style has DEVOLVED into More of a Traditional "Mexican Style", but he's NEVER EVER Been the Take-Two-Shots-to-Land-One, Face-First Mexican Fighter...Margarita is the QUINTESSENTIAL Practioner of the Traditional "Mexican Style"...A Prime JM Marquez is the Polar Opposite... Given the Real Life PROBLEMS Pac has Had w/Marquez, in 2 Fights, It's Legitimate to Wonder how Pac Would Do Against the "Black American Style"...It's a FAIR Question... REED:kidcool:
All true, but Mayweather is the only "black american style" fighter out there who could be considered on Manny's radar. Mosley and Berto are black/american but aren't in that "mold".
I agree to a point. When I think of a black American style, I guess I think of a fast slickster. That's undeniable. But when you think about it, what fast slicksters are around now? Floyd. That's it, literally. You look at all other top black fighters, whilst some of them are quick, they are stylistically pretty different from one another, and none of them really have that classic black slickster style. By the way in regards to Marquez, I see him as a very different fight to Floyd or someone like Floyd, not just because Manny has changed, but because Marquez is far more commited to offense. As Hut has mentioned before, one of the reasons he was so successful, is he was not afraid to let his hands go and throw proper combos, often disrupting Manny's offense. Floyd isn't going to do that, he is too safety first and basically throws 1 punch a time. What's interesting in that fight is to see what Manny does with Floyd's excellent defense, and what Floyd does against Manny's crazy speed/offense.
Pac has trouble with Eric Morales too, and lost. Does Morales qualify as having a "black American" style?
All those guys fought completely different. There is nothing similar about any of them. The closest comparison would be Mayweather and Pea, and only because both are known for very good defense.
:: It's funny though that the fighters that have done best against Manny are Morales and Marquez. Both pretty offensive fighters. Although he's not very good, the slickest fighter Manny has fought is probably Ledwaba, and his style didn't come close to troubling Manny. He also faced a few fast fighters at flyweight, and did fine against them.
Exactly what? black people are fast? Is that all you got? There must be something else, "fast" isn't enough to call it a style.
All 4 guys fought pretty similarly in the scheme of things. Speed, distance, counter punching, emphasis on not getting hit. If there's a 'mexican style' guys like that can be grouped together too.
I don't think any of those guys fought with similar styles at all. Especially Roy. Pea and Mayweather are the closest comparison. Both really defensive.
elements of the archetypal modern African American style in order of how much they define it: Speed, counter punching, emphasis on defence, outfighting, fairly modest punch output, often potshotters, sometimes headhunters
I don't think Roy should be included though. Floyd and Whitaker are more classic boxers with good defense. Roy wasn't really a boxer. He was just freakishly fast and athletic for his size, and didn't get hit much purely because of speed and reactions.
Athleticism or skill, you're talking means towards the same ends though, no? A guy fighting Roy had pretty similar challenges and frustrations to guys fighting Ali, Pernel or a 130lb Floyd. Different challenges and frustrations to guys fighting say Duran, Chavez & Armstrong.
I see your point but I think fighting a prime Roy is probably harder. The fact that he relied on pure athleticism makes him more unpredictable than more schooled boxers like Floyd and Whitaker, and when he wanted to turn it on, he had vastly superior offense to both of them. So I would say stylistically he's sufficiently different.
By the way... Bernard Hopkins reads this forum, and got that realization from me. That aside, carry on....
