I personally like Machen's counter punching & patience to give Ali a really shitty night here. The big man was never comfortable leading the dance and Machen would happily wait and wait until he throbbed, panted & drooled. He'd present all the very same problems Dog Jones & Jimmy Young did, IMO. Close fight.
Disagreed about close fight, prime Ali's speed would decide this. Both Zora Folley and Ernie Terrell outboxed Machen, and even though it does not work as simply, the ease Ali beat them both makes me believe he wouldn't have much trouble here either. Machen was clearly smaller and slower than Ali and wasn't a particularly big puncher. At best I could see Machen putting up a Mildernberger-type performance where he makes Ali struggle a little but won't win rounds
Young & Jones were both smaller & slower and neither were particularly big punchers. But both were very skilled counter punchers & feinters who had the patience to make Ali lead, consistently. :dunno: Both won in the opinion of a very large % of people. I like the cut Machen's jip, here.
To make excuses I think Ali was still inexperienced against Jones (and still won) and had clearly lost a step or two against Young. Prime Ali, I think, would be able to use in and out moves and find places for scoring shots against Machen and he would also have the patience to shoot the jab from distance. I didn't mean that Mildenberger was like the two, I only meant that Machen could do as "good" as him at best. Mildenberger had same strengths as Kn Norton later, though obviously was not as good
Yeah I think prime Ali definitely wins. I think Machen gives him problems though and if it's a pre or post prime Ali the potential for a contentious one is there. I was actually gonna make it '61' or 76' Ali or something but couldn't be arsed. I think Machen takes rounds off even a prime Ali though. Maybe the thread can be expanded by asking if anyone else think of some match ups where two guys considered reams apart in the quality sense might match up very closely? It's an interesting MM topic, IMO.
You make concessions for Ali being either green or old in his fights with Jones & Young respectively (fair, IMO), but mention how Ali beat Folley, with not a word breathed about how past-it he was?
In this instance I didn't find it very important since I rate prime Ali clearly above any version of Folley
Important? Possibly not, but that isn't really the point, to be fair. Folley was over-the-hill, & not by a little. It's relevant to his performance against Ali.
The more important point IMO was that Folley defeated Machen soundly and Ali was better than him in most ways. Even though that does not automatically lead to Ali's win here it is a notable point
I don't find it a very important point, tbh. In fact i won't even bore us all with the counter points since I'm sure we can all anticipate them before my fingers hit the keys. They're between the lines of the previous posts Ive made in the thread.
I think Ali's speed was so extraordinary that the tactics that troubled him a lot in the 70s dont necessarily apply here... I see what Hut is getting at and it is logical, but I just feel that he'd be forced too much on the defensive just from getting buzzed by those lightning combos... I think the only real tactical constant between young Ali and post-exile Ali is that intelligent pressure combined with a good left hook troubled both versions... if Machen had more of Norton's qualities (that is an accurate hook to compliment that jab) I would give more creedence to Hut's scenario... but I can't get out of my head the complete ease with which Ali completely dominated Ernie Terrell, who if nothing else had a terrific jab that was a mile long... Ali's speed rendered it essentially useless
In fairness, I would rate Machen a good deal better than Terrell, whose career never hit the heights some expected it to.
I think they rate roughly the same, frankly, at best a slight edge to Machen for one or two more notable names on the resume... other than that, not much to distinguish them and Terrell wasn't flattened in a round by a one-trick pony like Johannson... I think stylistically, there is enough common ground to make Ali's performance against Terrell a pertinent measuring stick against a fight with Machen... not saying they are totally similar but they both lived and died with the jab, except Terrell had the immense advantage of being 6 inches taller... and Ali rendered that jab a useless weapon, won as he pleased, toyed with the guy... I can't envision Eddie Machen doing a whole lot better against that young Muhammad Ali
I don't see any real similarities between Machen & Terrel as they relate to how they'd deal with Ali, tbh. Terrel was a pretty high energy guy who generally led, threw at a moderately high volume & who was pretty hittable. I mean, he didn't throw much against Ali of course, but his natural strengths didn't compensate for being put in that position, leaving him with nothing much. Machen was a much more circumspect guy in temprement being a great natural counter puncher who made guys lead, feinted WAY more and was way better at neutralising an opponents jab to my eyes. Those are 3 characteristics he shares, again with Doug Jones and Jimmy Young, and IMO probably key attributes needed to give Ali trouble if you aren't a swarming volume puncher. BTW, i think prime Ali wins, I just just think it'd surprisingly turn out to be the most awkward of his 60s defences.
I disagree with Terrel being high-energy guy. He lead with his long jab, but usually after that he pulled almost a John Ruiz by leaning on his opponents to take away inside fighting, but his reach was useless against Ali's sharp attacks. I don't see Machen having the speed&reach combination either to catch prime Ali enough. And Cdogg is on my side so don't dare to disagree
