Credit where it's due Sly, as massive a Floyd groupie as you are, you actually acknowledge Floyd's handspeed advantage is only slight. Prime Duran had very underrated speed. In the first Leonard fight, he almost matched Leonard for handspeed. He could cut the ring off fucking quick too. Duran and Floyd are very different fighters, both talented and skilled. I think Duran is the better of the two and would win head to head. Floyd has some advantages over Duran for sure, but Duran had a higher workrate, better stamina, better power, more unpredictable, and just more ferocious/sadistic. Duran is capable of dishing out more damage, no question. I agree Floyd could probably match him more or less in physical strength (I think Duran was probably stronger to be honest, but the advantage would be a small one) and ring generalship. Toughness? Floyd's been properly buzzed by 140 pounders, and hurt by Mosley. I have no doubt the best 147 puncher ever could KO Floyd early. I think they both have very good chins though. Regarding defense. In pure defensive mode Floyd is even harder to hit, but the beauty of Duran, and one of his very best attributes as a fighter is his ability to seamlessly integrate offense and defense. More than any other fighter in history, he was able to come forward, simultaneously punching and slipping punches, making it look easy and natural. Putting pressure on whilst evading the incoming, plus slipping and countering with great speed and accuracy. Basically, nobody could be as aggressive as Duran was and manage to get hit clean as little as Duran did. About Hagler Vs Floyd. I can see where Hut is coming from, I don't think it would be a mismatch. However, I think Hagler matches up well with Floyd. Strong, pretty fast for a middleweight, southpaw, powerful, accurate, and not that easy to hit. A stoppage is unlikely, Floyd is incredibly crafty, hard to hit, and has a good chin, but Hagler would win clearly.
Couple issues with this.. 1. I don't really think pressure bothers Floyd. He chose to fight Castillo's fight in the first fight and in the second fight fought in a manner which he thought would leave no doubts in people's minds. IMO he beat Castillo at his own game in the first fight, and he beat Hatton at it as well. 2. Oscar didn't give up the jab for no reason. He gave up the jab because he started eating right hand counters every time he threw it. 3. Floyd has been caught occasionally against southpaws, but he's been caught occasionally by orthodox fighters as well. The idea that he regularly takes a lot of shots against southpaws is stretching it. 4. I don't think activity bothers him. Floyd cranks up activity to the level of his opponent's. Basically, he fights as much as he has to. But from what we've seen of him and what we know of his gym habits, he is always in phenomenal shape and always ready to throw for 12 rounds if he has to. I agree with this, which is why I don't see Floyd standing a chance of winning. It is an unfair fight, to be honest. Great bigger man beats great smaller man every time.
Good post. Floyd is a very technically & strategicially complete fighter -a very hard man to beat. If Im betting money on a Duran-Floyd fight, I probably take Duran to win but straddled with the 'over' so that if Floyd gets a decision I break even. I wouldn't risk a penny against Floyd beating anyone from 130-140.
1. Castillo's pressure? Dude...DUDE! Floyd was injured. He couldn't jab properly because of his shoulder. He kept switching southpaw in order to protect his left. When do you see Floyd switch to southpaw? Hatton exherted MORE pressure than Castillo did, and Floyd simply fucked him up. Hatton had previously wiped his ass with that same Castillo in a battle of pressure fighters. 2. Jab? Everyone....EVERYONE has trouble with a good jab....and Oscar's jab is better than Duran's was. Nevertheless Floyd beat him 8 rounds to 4 at the weight of 154lbs...which he's not natural at. 3. Southpaws? He dominated both Corley and Judah. DOMINATED! He got buzzed a little by both, sure, but no fighters...NO FIGHTERS enjoy facing southpaws. At least Floyd has shown that he can adjust mid-fight. Hagler doesn't have the handspeed of either Judah or Corley in order to catch Floyd with a surprise left...and Hagler isn't a typical southpaw anyway in that the left isn't Hagler's hardest punch, it's his right hand. Which is why Marvin often fought "righty" when he wanted to get down and dirty. 4. Prime Floyd isn't getting outworked by anyone. Why? His movement, counter punches and elusive upperbody mischief..discourages opponents from throwing. His style is NOT a weakness.
To be fair, the Castillo that Hatton fought was well past his best. Castillo in his prime is by far the superior fighter, imo.
Hatton is to Castillo as Tyson is to Frazier. In that both come forwards but their methods are quite different. Hatton comes forward in lunging spurts which generally end in clinches and doesn't manage an unusually high punch output. Hatton ends up inside because his attacks from the outside to inside have him end up there. Castillo gets inside to STAY there and work and works at a higher rate once there. Quite different forms of pressure. Just sayin'.
'by far'? Wouldn't say so. I'd say they were both on about the same level. Both excellent champions, short of ATG level.
I can accept that, sure. But this just illustrates that it's erroneous to suggest that Floyd can't handle pressure...per se. Secondly, as i communicated, Floyd had difficulty keeping him off and controlling him (relatively) in the 1st fight simply because his left arm was compromised.
Floyd seemed to throw plenty lefts and plenty hard lefts in that fight. So I dunno. Sometimes excuses are more about protecting an ego than anything. I thought he clearly won, anyway. Actually consider it his most impressive performance, the way he adapted and dug that win out:Thumbs:
Mythical Matchup involving Mayweather Jr would have been easier to answer had he not become a BITCH once he got to 147....had he fought the likes of Cotto, Margarito, Williams, Clottey, Cintron circa 2005-2008. We could better measure how Mayweather would deal w/ pressure(Margarito/Cotto), Height/Reach advantage/Southpaw(Williams), Punching power at the weight(Cintron),etc...
I personally would have preferred that Floyd stay at 135-140. Could've easily been ATG there, imo. But he doesn't like drying out and cutting weight.. so now he's a welterweight fighting guys who are legitimate middleweights. <insert rant about fixing the weigh-in system here>
I saw Gatti throw plenty of right hands and hard right hands after he broke his hand in the 3rd Ward fight too. A fighter has to do what he has to do. the evidence that it was a legit injury is twofold: 1. The fact that he kept southpaw switching. This is very uncharacteristic of Mayweather. 2. We heard him and his uncle talking about it mid-fight. But yes, he won clearly and it was an impressive and gutsy performance.
I hate Floyd, but I am objective with him. However, I'll never believe he won that first Castillo fight. I rewatched it semi recently, and Castillo just did more, and landed the more solid shots, was the aggressor, and the champion etc. To me it was close but clear to Castillo. Floyd DID win the rematch clearly, no question, but that first fight was Castillo's.
I'll sum up my reply with something I'd said in my initial post...Hagler, whether it's broken down in individual attributes or skill, is a much better fighter than anyone Floyd has fought if you take their individual attributes and make one fighter. Period. I don't know why you're in mythical matchup threads with Floyd...has he lost one on your ledger? Save for the Floyd wins 9 out of 10 times" general statement?
We've played this game before. And it's just that...a game. With ANY fighter we can find names to list that they never fought and then say they ducked them. But this isn't always a fair assessment of the situation given all of the circumstances. Game 1: When Leonard returned from retirement in 1987 and beat Hagler (semi-controversially) he shamefully ducked: Benn, Eubank, Barkley, Toney, Nunn, McCallum and instead elected to fight a Hearns that was coming off a recent KO loss to Barkley. An Ancient Duran. Donny Lalonde who was basically a pretty boy bum...with a paper title. Is post hagler Leonard one of history's most cowardly punks? Floyd moves up to 147 to take on, after a brief warm up, the undisputed (TRUE) Welterweight champion of the world at the time (ZAB JUDAH..who beat Spinks who beat Mayorga who beat Forrest who beat Mosley etc...ect...) with the goal of eventually getting in the ring with the CASH COW (and legend) of boxing and still very capable...Oscar De la Hoya at 154lbs...in order to have achieved titles in every division from 130lbs to 154lbs. Judah loses to Baldomir in an upset. Most people believe that Judah is still the better fighter though and presents more of a challenge to Floyd stylistically (vis a vis Baldomir) and so since he still has a Welterweight Title, Floyd takes him on. After Floyd beats the man, idiot fans start screaming "Baldomir is the true champion not Zab" and so what does he do? He puts his date with Oscar on hold and fights the TRUE champion in that division. Margarito and Cotto are irrelevant at 147lbs at this time. Cintron who? He moves to 154lbs to take on Oscar de La Hoya who given his combination of talent (power, speed, chin) and size present a FAR GREATER risk to Floyd than the aforementioned (Muzse and Double L among others suspect Oscar will knock him out in fact). Floyd beats him and then understandably loses motivation because this was teh pinnacle achievement of his career. takes time off. Why not? Hatton who was undefeated at the time and had famous stoppage victories over Tszyu and Castillo calls him out. After a years rest Floyd responds and knocks him out. Floyd takes a break again (obviously losing interestin boxing..it happens). It's only after the fact that suddenly cotto and margarito are relevant. At the time when Floyd was destroying Gatti Cotto didn't feel he was ready and by the time he became ready Floyd was already fighting Oscar. Oscar...like fighting Tyson or Leonard..is the guy ANy FIGHTER WOULD FIGHT instead of the alternative, due to who he is and the money he generates.
Everything I just typed makes logical sense. Refute it if you can, or take your metamucil and shut up.
And, as we all know, you mean the "other" logic...the "logic" that makes Floyd look good and other fighters look bad. This is just another vain attempt on your part to inflate Floyd's status. The bottom line is Mayweather's opposition at 147 is nothing special...no matter how much you try to make Judah, Baldomir, Hatton and old & inactive Mosley sound like a Murderer's Row lineup.
It's like a serial bumbler at work. There's a 'logical' reason for every fuck up. Home problems, my mother took sick, I took sick, my kid took sick, the trains were off, roadworks on the motorway again, Im clinically depressed I need more time off. Taken one at a time they all make logical sense. 8 years go by though and results become what they are. 4 top 5 ranked contenders, 3 of which were awful top 5ers, the other an inactive former great who'd lost 2 of his last 3 (Oscar). Floyd needs demoted down a department or two.
Cotto Margarito Clottey Williams Cintron How Mayweather got away with NOT fighting any of those guys during his time at 147, 2005-2008???? Other than ducking/avoiding them....the fans/public was screaming for fightins vs. Cotto, Margarito and Williams.... a lot more than the Hatton fight...
Don't need excuses. Whenever one became relevant they were promptly beaten before Floyd could get at them or else they avoided him or else Floyd was in retirement mode. He ducked no one and this is ridiculous.
Yeah who says boxing hasn't evolved? Roy Jones invented that defensive technique barely 15 years ago and Floyd has improved on it already.:Thumbs:
