What do you guys make of this matchup? Gamboa is obviously better, Rios is bigger. Rios looks like a pretty huge lightweight, and Gamboa - despite having fought at 130 - looks fucking tiny, he's about 5'4, he looks like a featherweight at best. Pacquiao has proved multiple times a big gulf in ability can overcome an equally large size differential, could Gamboa do the same?
Except Rios isn't shot, hasn't been knocked out, isn't being asked to drain himself... Not trying to diminish what Pac has accomplished - if it were that easy, then everyone would be doing it, right? But Pac was never at as much of a size/prime disadvantage as Gamboa would be in this fight. I think Sergio Martinez is more talented than any current light heavyweight on the planet (with the possible exception of Chad Dawson, though his lack of desire still gives Martinez a strong case), but most likely wouldn't pick him in a head-on battle against any legit Top 10 opponent.
That's exactly how I see it Jake. Now the hype has subsided a bit regarding Pacquiao beating up bigger men, people are trying to detract from his accomplishments. Say what you want, but why aren't there more Pacquiaos in boxing? Whatever way you look at it, his accomplishments are exceptional. But I disagree about the level of disadvantage. Cotto and Clottey aren't shot, and neither were weight drained either. Hatton wasn't shot, though he was clearly diminished, and without his magic wraps, Plasterito was just a massive, tough, determined scrub. But the enormous size difference still makes that performance impressive. And though to look at both pairs, the size difference LOOKS more in Gamboa Vs Rios than Pacquiao Vs Cotto, Gamboa actually started his career only 5 pounds south of Rios. While Cotto has always been significantly heavier than Pacquiao. In fact, if we just look at the stats, the weight disparity is far, far more with Pacquiao. We're only asking Gamboa to move up 5 pounds from where he started, or realistically, 9 pounds from what seems to be his natural weight. Pacquiao against Cotto/Clottey was 40 pounds above where he started (yes he was a teenager but still), and 20 pounds above what was probably Manny's natural weight. Plus, Cotto is a better, more proven fighter than Rios. So while it's a tall order, picking Gamboa isn't that much of a stretch. By the way, I think Serge is far more talented than Dawson. I just don't get it with Dawson, him and Lopez are the two most overrated fighters in the current boxing scene. I take it from your post that your pick would be Rios then Jake? If you want, to even things up a bit, they have to weigh in at 133.
When I listed the above, I meant that nearly everyone that Pac has faced at higher weights has had at least one disadvantage. My point was that nobody he's faced from 140 onward has been in their prime or close to it. Clottey is probably the one exception, but just not very good. His being bigger was enough to smack around that version of Chico, but that's it. I wouldn't classify Clottey as the welterweight equivalent of Rios. I disagree with you on Cotto, but none of that was really the point of my post. Cotto also didn't have a massive size advantage over Pacquiao. Rios is in the prime of his career and would outweigh Gamboa by at least 15 lb on fight night. Your weight comparison - I mean c'mon, Oscar began his career at 130, but looked like a starving child doing so. Gamboa is far more effective at 126. Moving up beyond 130 I don't think will fare well for him. Rios being forced to come in at anything below 135 - or even capping the amount of weight he can gain from weigh-in to fight night - would perhaps level the playing field, but still tough to pick against him given his natural power and Gamboa not being the best at taking a shot.
Bam Bam would fuck him up. I dont see Gamboa being very successful above 130. He came into the ring Sat at only 135 I believe. As opposed to Bam Bam who comes in a higher than 150. Gamboa is EASILY the better, and more talented of the two... but Rios overwhelms him on size alone.
Regarding the weight comparison, that's why I clarified it with what I consider to be their natural weights. I consider Manny to be a natural featherweight, and Oscar a natural welterweight, despite where they started their careers. I also consider Gamboa to be a natural featherweight, which begs the question, why was he fighting at 130 for so long? To be honest he looks on the small side even at featherweight. I agree with you about none of them being as prime as Rios etc. Cotto ISN'T shot though. Honestly he doesn't look hugely different to earlier in his career, he's lost some speed and sharpness but that's to be expected. People are too gung ho these days calling people shot. One loss, especially a KO loss, and you're shot. Hatton was more declined than Cotto, but still not SHOT. However, while both were bigger than Manny, neither of them seemed that much bigger since Manny has filled out a bit. I guess my point is about Cotto, he's still better than Rios. I would have to pick Rios too even if he drained a couple of extra pounds to get to 133, but I give Gamboa a legit shot. The main reason I don't pick Gamboa actually is he's not as proven as Rios, and we don't know how tough he is, how much heart he has etc. Which would obviously be an important factor going up against a significantly bigger man.
I disagree on Pac. To me, Gamboa is a prototypical featherweight. Pac was fierce while there, but had the frame to go up t. I don't see where else Gamboa can add on. I can see him growing back into a junior lightweight, but would be too bulky (or even "fat") beyond that. Cotto was not the same fighter against Pac as he was going into the Margarito fight. That point being, Pac did NOT face the very best version of Cotto - not to mention that he basically had no trainer for that fight/camp. Not diminishing Pacquiao's win, mind you - just the parallels you keep attempting to draw. Gamboa v. present version of Humberto Soto might be an interesting matchup and closer to what you're seeking with the examples you've provided.
The very best version of Cotto? Possibly not, but not a shot or even borderline shot version as some people like to portray. This is nothing to do with a Pacman agenda either, I've been saying for EVERY fight since Plasterito that Cotto looks fine, and that people are having kneejerk reactions. I say this as a career long Cotto fan. I'm not sure I agree about Soto. I guess it's only a valid comparison if you consider Gamboa several levels below Pacquiao, because I consider Soto several levels below Cotto. Soto at world level is a solid enough fighter and not much more. In fact I think Gamboa would throw him a beating, size difference or not. Also, I think Pacquiao absolutely has a featherweight frame. Pacquiao is supposedly around 5'5 (according to REED, Karl, several others, actually, you must have seen him in person right Jake?), and frame wise just looks like a featherweight. Noticeably shorter and less full framed than a solid lightweight like Duran. I think Pacquiao's success is just unique, he's probably not the best person to use as a benchmark. He has a freaky physique that doesn't seem too bulked up, and he's basically retained all his speed. I do agree that Gamboa is smaller though. Like I said, he looks like a featherweight at best. I was amazed he was fighting at 130 when I first saw him.
Then why mention him in the first post of the thread? Seems a curious way to just say Pacquiao's unique.
I want to know how people gauge other people's chances at doing similar stuff to Pacquiao. It's something I wonder too, but basically yeah, the conclusion I come to is that Pacquiao truly is unique. I still think someone like Gamboa has a somewhat realistic chance against a larger, inferior foe like Rios, with that kind of size differential.
Gamboa still has a questionable chin and he'd be WAY TOO SMALL against Rios. Bam Bam would walk right through him and just beat him down. P4P Gamboa is better but he would still have no chance against Rios. He'd get stopped.
Still, it took Pac eight years to grow into what you consider to be his most natural weight class (featherweight), and then another five to ignite the run that has allowed him to morph into the legend that he's become. Gamboa is barely four years into the sport and the best is yet to come.
That is true to some extent. Pacquiao has had time to mature physically and obviously gain a LOT of experience in so many weight classes. However think about this. After consecutive stoppage wins over Oscar, Hatton, and Cotto, he had fought at 130 just the previous year. That's pretty incredible really. Something that is kind of ironic though Jake is you said a couple of years down the line, Donaire and Gamboa will be fighting for the P4P spot. The ironic thing is, both these guys are only like 2 years younger than Pacquiao. Luckily these days it seems age is less of a factor, as long as you don't have many miles on the clock. I think Donaire is better by the way, but obviously I have a high opinion of Gamboa too.
