Which victim of a score card robbery did you feel most sorry for ?

tapia vs. ayala II. i thought tapia won 8 rounds. didn't know why ayala was celebrating after the final bell. i guess he knew arum would take care of the judges. but then again, tapia didnt even make weight for that fight.

felt pretty bad for medina when he got robbed vs. tapia in new york.

 

Thomas Hearns vs Ray Leonard II

After being made to wait 8 long years for a rematch and it only happening when Hearns's slip had started to show...Hearns surprised pretty much everyone by decking Leonard twice and winning the fight, despite the draw on the scorecards. I felt really bad for Hearns, he had finally gotten even with Leonard but the judges denied him what he deserved. Hell...even Leonard has admitted Hearns beat him that night.

 

Good one. For the reasons that you've given, we should certainly sympathize with hearns. When you consider the two 10-8 rounds, leonard would have had to have won 7 rounds to 5 in order to get the draw. I don't see leonard winning 7 rounds in that one.

"However"

I, personally, was happy that it was a draw. I felt that Leonard dominated rounds 5 and 12 MORE than hearns dominated in the rounds that he scored the KDs. In fact Ray looked close to stopping him on both occassions. Of course those rounds would still be scored 10-9 and the KD rounds would automatically get the 10-8, so the point is moot. But I felt that Ray should have been given more credit for those two rounds in particular and so..if you take those rounds out of the equation as well as the two KD rounds...they pretty much split the other 8 rounds.

Ray fought like a champion that night (as did Hearns)..and showed TREMENDOUS heart in rising from the KDs and always trying to finish Tommy who only survived because of his excessive holding in the 12th.

I'm glad it was a draw (although I admit that Hearns should have won by 2 points on account of the KDs).

 

I guess it's the same as Marquez-Pacquiao 1 to an extent:

I thought Pacquiao won based on the 10-6 first round that he should have been awarded by all three judges....but I thought Marquez won more rounds. Neither man deserved to lose and so I was happy with the draw.

 

Irrelevant

That isnt how fights are scored

you score them on a round-by-round basis

 

Lyle was badly hurt and stopped:dunno: ... how the heck does Ali NOT deserve credit for that?

As for young, I am sick of people ignoring the fact that he should have lost a good 5 points in that fight for REPEATEDLY STICKING HIS HEAD OUTSIDE OF THE ROPES TO AVOID PUNCHES

 

Wow, you were either watching a different fight or you must be a really big De La Hoya fan. All I saw him doing for pretty much the whole fight was throwing blocked body shots and eating Sturm's jab. Sturm has a good jab to begin with, but DLH made him look like Larry Holmes that night.

 

Fennech - Nelson....guy travels to US to prove himself on a world stage, fights his heart out against an all time great, wins, gets robbed


Jones Jnr in the Olympics too...a kid being robbed of his dream

 

Irrelevant...

since I already addressed this in the post. The question is not whether you think a guy won or not, it's about whether you feel sorry for them in the decision.

 

Lyle was significantly hurt, & Ali deserves plenty of credit for it. However, will anyone here answer with a straight face that that fight would be stopped if the roles were reversed? We all know there wouldn't be a snowball's chance in hell the ref would jump in & take Ali's title away.

As for Young, I'll believe he deserved to lose when Ali loses points for illegally holding behind the neck hundreds of times, incurring warning after warning without deduction. Ali lost the fight on points clearly, whatever anyone thinks of Young's tactics. It seems whenever Ali-Young is brought up, people don't want to address the fact Ali missed & missed all night long, & was countered over & over again --- there is only a discussion on whether or not Young deserved the result on moral grounds. Boxing isn't run that way.

 

The tables turned? What difference does that make? Ali never got a free pass on anything like that because he was never that out of it... He stopped Lyle fair and square

As for Young, he was taking part of his anatomy and removing it from the confines of the ring... He did this whenever Ali mounted any kind of attack... You can still punch a guy who's trying to push down on you... He's still in the ring, the target is there... Attempting to protect yourself by actually removing part of your body from the field of play is a vastly more egregious offense... To me this is like comparing hit-and-hold with kicking a guy in the balls

 

Did Ali out-point Young, CDogg?

It matters very much whether Ali wouldve been stopped under the same circumstances, CDogg (and we both know he wouldnt). Thats dirty pool.

 

No it does not matter... Lyle was never going to knock Ali out or hurt him like that... It wasn't going to happen and it did not happen... Lyle was badly hurt and the stoppage was fair, no complaints from Lyle at that time... It's a non-issue...

Young outpointed Ali only if you have no issue with giving a guy 10 points who you know should be DQd for repeatedly exiting the ring

Like I said, if a guy kicked his opponent in the nuts at the start of each round and the referee didn't penalize him and the kicker proceeded to spend the remainder of the round punching the guy all over the ring, you COULD play along and give the kicker a nice 10-9 on your card... Or you could rightly be disgusted at the official for not dqing the guy

 

Aren't judges bound by the ref's call? Are you not conceding Ali was out-pointed? What more does a guy have to do to win a fight? He has to win it a certain way now, even if he out-points his rival? Where are the twenty point deductions for Ali, holding down Frazier's head? Something tells me you don't make any changes to your scoring there. This is no different in practice.

As for Ali-Lyle, I just do not understand your position at all. You agree the fight wouldn't be stopped if the situation was identical but reversed (which is the only reasonable take anyone could have --- we know how protected Ali was), yet you're fine with that? That isn't bias? That isn't corruption in judgement?

 

disagREED on the 12th round. Hearns came out strong and dominated nearly the first half of the round before Leonard hurt Hearns and turned things around. Leonard's stronger second half outweighs Hearns's first half, but there was no knockdown and the ENTIRE round needs to be looked at to be scored correctly...not just the part that works for you. That was a 10-9 round for Leonard.

AND...there's no way the rounds were split 6-6. I had it 8 - 4 for Hearns before the knockdowns. Maybe a case could be made for 7 - 5 for Hearns, but that's about it. And the knockdowns DO count, and Hearns deserved the win.

It wasn't a rip off on the level of Whitaker-Chavez or Whitaker-Ramirez I, but it was still a clear win for Hearns.

 

agREED. This is just Stafford trying to go against the grain.

 

1) the judges are bound by the ref in the sense that they must take a point away when the ref instructs so... they are not bound to give 9 points to the victim of a guy who is cheating just because the ref is too much of an idiot to deduct points from a guy who is (again) STICKING HIS HEAD OUTSIDE OF THE FIELD OF PLAY IN ORDER TO AVOID HAVING TO DEAL WITH HEAD SHOTS... In lieu of the referee not DQing Young (which he should have) I siomply score such rounds (in the event that Young may have otherwise "won" them, 10-10... Im not penalizing Ali or rewarding Young because the ref is a fool) ... Again, you can not compare Ali holding Joe Frazier with a guy avoiding punches by actually leaving the ring... again, I contend that this is like comparing hitting a guy with soft rabbit punches in a clinch to kicking a guy in the balls repeatedly ... so it is in fact, DRASTICALLY different in practice

2) I never agreed to any such thing, frankly. Would you care to point out some time where Ali was staggered and out on his feet as Lyle was and was given a free pass by the ref? I don't understand YOUR position... how exactly was it a bad stoppage? Ali hurt Lyle and poured on a dozen punches which Lyle was helpless to defend... the ref, seeing Lyle badly hurt, stopped the fight because Lyle could not defend himself... Lyle never said a word about the stoppage at the time... it was a clear cut case of saving a fighter who is helpless (a situation Ali was never in, so I don't know how you can ascertain that things would have been different if the tables were turned... the tables being turned is pretty irrelevant to bring up in the first place because they never were turned) ... If you agree that the stoppage was routine and totally justified, why even bring up an alternative... is it your position that Lyle fiyught differently, that he didn't try to stop Ali because he "knew" it was in the bag? It doesn't make any sense

 

WTF, Ramonza?? Did Ali beat up someone you know or did you lose a large bet on him??

 

Robin Reid vs Sven Ottke in Germany. Robin was penalised many times for throwing legit punches. It is the most disgusting fight I have ever seen. The referee should have been arrested and this fight should have been investigated.

 

The large Turkish population in Germany is surely to blame.

 

I'm the first person to question the, "victories," over Young & Lyle? Not on your life.

 

Ali stopped Ron Lyle fair and square

 

Excellent example. Reid was docked one point in I think the 8th because he had the cheek to throw, and land, a jab.

MTF :shit:

 

Yeah that was probably the worst thing i remember seeing. No idea how the IBF(?) could let that shit stand.

 

Stafford would run into a field of wheat with scythe and an angry look on his face if he was let. The grain would get it that day, make no mistake.

 

...because they have such a white-glove reputation for honesty, integrity, & professionalism?

::

 

I remember watching that fight and thinking "this shit is wrong". If Robin Reid KO'd Sven Ottke they probably would have disqualified Robin for rabbit punching. The fight was robbery in plain sight.

 

Yeah Ottke-Reid was shocking. By far the worst I've seen.

Danny Williams vs Airich or whatever his name was would have been just as bad if Williams hadn't somehow won despite all the various and imaginative ways they tried to deny him victory

 

Oh, PLEASE. People on this forum question anything that doesn't work for their point of view. That means zero to me. Personally, I don't think Young deserved the decision against Ali. But I do think Norton should have gotten the decision in the Ali rubber match.

BUT...there is nothing controversial about the Ali-Lyle stoppage. Lyle was hurt and not defending himself.

 

::