Is Juan Manuel Marquez an ATG?

IYO is JMM an ATG (so that means I'm not giving a set criteria)

 

hell no

see the other thread for an explanation

he is outstanding, tremendous

but if you measure him up against the greatest fighters he falls miserably short

like I said in the other thread, he's at the Esteban DeJesus level to me

really fucking good, capable of beating individual great fighters here and there but overall not in that class

 

Not quite
Super solid - one of TODAYs greats, but not all time.

 

yes, imo

 

the prerequisite question should be how many all time great fighters are there, total?

marquez is competitive with any featherweight that ever lived under current weigh in conditions.

 

maybe about 30

 

Marquez is one of the 10 or so greatest fighters since I started watching boxing. I don't feel like I'm qualified to rate anyone under heavyweight in an all-time sense.

 

it would be interesting to see where the cut off point is. between your 30th (or so)/ last ranked all time great who barely made the cut, and the top guy in that next echelon.

 

it would be something relatively minor

my point is that Marquez isn't anywhere near the top 30, he's likely not even top 70

now people here me say that and say "How dare you say that!!!??? blahblahblah" but I don't think they are really thinking about all of the great fighters there have been in all of the various weight classes

 

or maybe they think there are 100 guys they'd consider to be all time greats. its just semantics. may as well have asked if marquez ranks among the X greatest ever

 

"All-time great," needs an agreed-upon definition, no matter how much some may wish to avoid this.

To me, I use that as being, "could this guy beat some greats in at least his personal best weightclass? Could he be competitive with the true greats of that division?"

To that end, I say Marquez is a possible at Feather (at least, with the weigh-in advantage). You also have to look at their entire career, & judge it collectively & see where it winds them up, relative to the legends. I would have no qualms whatsoever calling Marquez a true great of his time, & one of the best fighters of his generation --- the way I would someone like, say, Oscar De La Hoya.

At the very top, top-end of the best Feathers in history, do I think Marquez really belongs? Sadly, I do not.

 

I want to say yes as I'm a big JMM fan but I'm not sure TBH. I would say that in support of a claim that he is I'd look at his fights with the one true ATG he has fought, namely Manny Pac, where they couldn't be seperated by more than a cigarette paper.

MTF

 

But let's say he's in the top 70. Or even the top 100. Man, there have been A LOT of professional boxers over the last century. That's pretty f'n great.

 

It is, you're 100% right. You just have to draw the line somewhere, & most people would do that at 100 or fewer.

 

Yeah, it's a tough one. As I said, I'm only comfortable rating the big guys.

 

I'm comfortable calling him one of the greatest of his generation.

 

Same.

 

JMM has BEATEN Better Fighters, @ MORE Weights than DeJesus has...JMM is BETTER than DeJesus...



REED:hammert:

 

Career wise i don't think you'd get many arguments that Marquez is greater.

I could be wrong but i think cdogg is more speaking about having close fights with Pacquiao putting JMM in a somewhat similar category to Dejesus.

It's not that their own accomplishments and skills aren't great, but mostly they're best known for giving the best fighter of their generation/weight class everything they could handle.

Better than Norton/Lamotta/Tarver but still ...

 

Exactly

 

Let me put it this way

To me, ALL TIME GREAT is reserved for a select few

check out these names for instance:

Robinson, Ali, Louis, Charles, Pep, Armstrong, Canzoneri, Whitaker, Leonard, Duran

those guys are clearly all-time greats, only a imbecile or someone being deliberately provocative would deny the ATG status of any of those guys

Marquez is clealry not within 10 miles of that class

 

But JM Marquez Did ALOT MORE than just Give the Best Fighter of his Generation All he Could Handle...TAKE AWAY the Biggest Wins of Norton, LaMotta & Tarver's Career's & JMM is STILL CLEARLY the Better Fighter...

Norton???...Seriously???...Norton Never EVER Actually WON a World Title in the Ring...Whereas, Marquez Won 2 @ 126, Another @ 130 & ANOTHER @ 135...Hell, He just MAY have Won 2 @ 135 but REED Can't Recall (Weren't the Casa AND Diaz Fights for Belts???)...

REED Can See SLIGHT Comparisons to the Aforementioned Guys, but Marquez Accomplished ALOT MORE, to B on the FAVORABLE End of Any of those Comparisons...



REED:Lok:

 

But I do put him on the favorable end

the point is not "Marquez = Norton"

the point is that "Marquez = Norton" is far closer to reality than "Marquez is one of the 20 or 30 greatest fighters who ever lived"

 

He falls just short of ATG status.

 

Marquez = Norton is ridiculous in any context to do with boxing.

 

Agreed. Marquez is a great fighter, but not in the elite "upper crust" so to speak.

 

Kinda meaningless poll. People are more split on their interpretation of what 'ATG' means than they are on Marquez' abilities.

 

Since his career isnt over, what could he do for you to get across the line?

 

only if you don't have your thinking cap on

Marquez = Duran is far more scandalous

 

If Not "Upper Crust", is JMM @ Least THIN Crust???...w/Pepperoni & Sausage???...



REED:kidcool: